The position of my rear wheels doesn't look right | FerrariChat

The position of my rear wheels doesn't look right

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by rumen1, Jan 18, 2023.

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  1. rumen1

    rumen1 Formula 3
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    #1 rumen1, Jan 18, 2023
    Since the beginning of my ownership I noticed, that the right rear wheel of my 512TR was sitting a little more close to the outside of the fender, compared to the left rear wheel. The difference is maybe around 10mm. However, I'm not sure if the problem is somewhere in the suspension or if it's just that for some reason one fender is more bulging than the other and it's creating an optical illusion.

    My engine is out at the moment for a cambelt change, so we have the opportunity to look every side of the suspension and the engine cradle perfectly and we can not find any reason whatsoever for this.

    A suspension alignment has been made this summer and all parameters were perfect. The car has no accidents whatsoever and everything seems absolutely perfect.

    Does anyone have any idea what can be causing this? I am comparing the top part of the tire with the middle part of the rear fender arch and if you look closely, you can definitely see a difference between the left and the right side.

    The only thing I can think of to resolve the problem is to add a wheel spacer on the left wheel :D :D

    Seriously - the only thing, that is not original on the car are the shocks, but I doubt they can create something like that.
     
  2. lagunacc

    lagunacc F1 Rookie
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    #2 lagunacc, Jan 18, 2023
    Did you meter the paint on the fenders?
     
  3. rumen1

    rumen1 Formula 3
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    #3 rumen1, Jan 18, 2023
    I don't have a tool for that unfortunately.
     
  4. lagunacc

    lagunacc F1 Rookie
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    #4 lagunacc, Jan 18, 2023
  5. rumen1

    rumen1 Formula 3
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    #5 rumen1, Jan 18, 2023
    I guess your point is that the left fender may have been hit and then hasn't been stretched perfectly?
     
  6. lagunacc

    lagunacc F1 Rookie
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    #6 lagunacc, Jan 18, 2023
    Maybe. The more mechanically experienced can offer other possible reasons.

    Overall, I wouldn't trust 'no accident' unless it's been properly verified.

    I've also seen "accident" mean different things to different people.
    Europe being a more fractured market than the US, there's more room for "interpretation".

    Hope all's good though.
     
  7. rumen1

    rumen1 Formula 3
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    #7 rumen1, Jan 18, 2023
    Car comes from Swiss and has been there its entire life. As I said - we inspected everything inside the engine bay, the inner side of the fenders, the engine cradle, suspension... everything and there is absolutely nothing, that suggests the car is not totally original. Only the shock absorbers. But I will see what I can do to check the paint thickness.
     
  8. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    #8 turbo-joe, Jan 18, 2023
    10 mm thick paint you can not meassure with a normal paint thickness tester
    you may put the right wheel to the left side and opposite to see if it is the same. may be 1 rim is wider?
     
  9. lagunacc

    lagunacc F1 Rookie
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    #9 lagunacc, Jan 19, 2023
    If he meters the car he can see what if anything was repainted.
    If an area was repainted and others not it would provide some clues.
     
  10. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    #10 turbo-joe, Jan 19, 2023
    right, but a good craftsman can do the metal job that it needs no clues
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #11 Steve Magnusson, Jan 19, 2023
    Can't you make a simple measurement from something like the upper A-arm mounting surface out to the outer surface of the fender lip on each side to see if the two fenders are about the same or not?

    Also, are the number of alignment shims between the rear upper and lower A-arms and the frame on both sides about the same or significantly different?

    However, neither frames nor fenders are super-precision items, but (if the fender-to-frame measurements seem more equal) I would see if moving alignment shims at the rear in a parallel manner from side-to-side could be done to move things over (rather than use an asymmetric wheel spacer). In an alignment, the rear geometry (wherever it is) is the reference that determines where the front geometry gets set. JMO.
     
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  12. willrace

    willrace Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #12 willrace, Jan 19, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2023
    Does the front have a similar offset?
    I ask this because I noticed a similar issue on my 1995 F355 (1994 build), and even asked the P.O. if he had mixed-up the spacers to push the driver side wheels outward, bringing the passenger side's inward, as if the car was set-up to shift the driver about 10-20mm closer to the center of the track.
    No body damage, no frame damage, but it's as if the bodywork was assembled that same 10-20mm off of the centerline of the frame.
    May have been a mid-90s production glitch, similar to how no two Boxers (and earlier) are quite the same - the rear edge of the rear clamshell isn't even the same over the tail lights, left vs right!!
     
  13. rumen1

    rumen1 Formula 3
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    #13 rumen1, Jan 19, 2023
    No, the position of the front ones is perfectly similar to each other.

    Yes, this is exactly what we want to do at the end, but I wanted to get something other than a tape measure, something stiff.

    As for the alignment shims - they look the same on both sides, so if there is a difference between them, it is not more than 1-1.5 millimeters. As I said - the strange thing is that the alignment shows to be perfect on the screen when they put the car on the alignment stand. I have taken the car to 2 different workshops for suspension alignment and they both say, that the parameters are perfect.

    Now, when you look the fenders from behind, you maybe can see a slight difference in the curve of the arch, but it doesn't seem like 10mm. That's a lot....

    Also the rear wheels are similar, no difference there.
     
  14. lagunacc

    lagunacc F1 Rookie
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    #14 lagunacc, Jan 19, 2023
    All I'm saying is that if he meters the paint he can figure what was worked on and what not.
    And you don't need an "accident" to require a repair - scrape one side in the garage, bike falls on it, etc.

    Or maybe rumen1 is more attentive than most people and they're all like that ;)
     
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  15. pshoejberg

    pshoejberg Formula 3
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    #15 pshoejberg, Jan 19, 2023
    You can check the bodywork / fenders for excess filler with a small magnet. Also it is quite easy to check the chassis measurements with a simple steel measuring tape - You can find the important dimensions in the work shop manual for the car and normally the tolerance on these measurements should be within a few millimeters (+-2-3 mm). You can also cross measure the distance between front and rear wheels to check alignment. Note that Ferrari is well known for having a rather big tolerance on the bodywork on their older cars. up to 10 mm or more is not unseen.

    Best, Peter
     
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  16. theunissenguido

    theunissenguido Formula 3
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    #16 theunissenguido, Jan 19, 2023
    Are you sure you have the correct rims....
     
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  17. rumen1

    rumen1 Formula 3
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    #17 rumen1, Jan 19, 2023
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  18. rumen1

    rumen1 Formula 3
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    #18 rumen1, Jan 19, 2023
    Thank you, for sure we will check this, I just wanted to see first if some of the other owners have seen such a thing on their cars too.

    Yes, I am super pedantic, but even if I wasn't... 10 millimeters... We will make some measurements and I will let you guys know.
     
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  19. xplodee

    xplodee Formula 3

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    #19 xplodee, Jan 20, 2023
    imo that's just ferrari build quality. but that's just an opinion.
     
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  20. Veedub00

    Veedub00 F1 Rookie
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    #20 Veedub00, Jan 21, 2023
  21. rumen1

    rumen1 Formula 3
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    #21 rumen1, Jan 21, 2023
    Yes, as soon as the engine and the wheels get back on the car, because I am also rebuilding my brake calipers. But to be honest from such pics it would be hard to tell anything, because the angle must be absolutely perfect from both sides. If we don't find the reason before that and they put the engine and the wheels back on the car, I will take pics from above the wheels, that will be the best way to tell I think.
     
  22. lagunacc

    lagunacc F1 Rookie
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    #22 lagunacc, Jan 22, 2023
    Checked mine - same thing. 90 Testarossa.

    Level against the right tire - the tire is about 3mm further out than the fender.
    Level against the right tire - the fender is further out than the tire by about 13mm

    These are rough measurements but the difference is clear.
     
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  23. rumen1

    rumen1 Formula 3
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    #23 rumen1, Jan 22, 2023
    Can you believe this? What were they thinking... I will still make all the precise measurements probably this week, but that's just absurd...
     
  24. lagunacc

    lagunacc F1 Rookie
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    #24 lagunacc, Jan 22, 2023
    I'm sure there are many small asymmetries throughout. The hood gap wasn't perfect even in the Testarossa brochure pics.

    The fender gap can look huge / strange on the Testarossa depending on the angle etc.
    Personally I'm not (wasn't) so concerned with this, but for anyone into a more modern look, particularly on the 512TR/M with the larger wheels
    I can see how this would be irritating.


    Petrolicious 512TR:

    https://d39a3h63xew422.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/17111527/1992-ferrari-512tr-32-1000x667.jpg

    https://d39a3h63xew422.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/17111117/1992-ferrari-512tr-16-1000x667.jpg

    https://d39a3h63xew422.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/17111125/1992-ferrari-512tr-17-1000x667.jpg

    https://d39a3h63xew422.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/17111233/1992-ferrari-512tr-24-2000x1335.jpg

    https://d39a3h63xew422.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/17111409/1992-ferrari-512tr-55-1000x667.jpg
     
  25. pshoejberg

    pshoejberg Formula 3
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    #25 pshoejberg, Jan 22, 2023
    As mentioned previously, this is a well known Ferrari thing. Consider it in a positive way- your car is hand build and unique.

    Best, Peter
     
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