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The return of the Dino?

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by WJHMH, Jun 27, 2004.

?

Should Ferrari reintroduce the Dino?

  1. Yes!

  2. No!

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Slim

    Slim Formula 3

    Oct 11, 2001
    1,735
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    richard
    Do you mean Matt Becker, the driver, or Roger Becker, the chief developer? I guess you mean Matt since you mention Gavin as well. If they are the car development geniuses you believe, then maybe BAR or Williams should hire them so they can stop getting their asses handed to them every fortnight by Ferrari.

    BTW, the new Dino marque as I invision it in my dream would not be a car that participated in "lotus' game". It would not be designed for the go-cart track but for the open roads of America (and thus have some legs). It could set a new standard for a small, lightweight sportscar. I suspect it wouldn't be so damn ugly either. The Elise is awesome, I'm sure, but it looks about as attractive as the stuff the local asian kids hack together in their driveways or something that appears in japanese anime.
     
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  3. zff

    zff Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
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    Ken
    I don't see Ferrari building any car that's "reasonably" priced, but that's not to say I can't see them building a Dino.

    I could see an Elise-sized Dino powered by something like a 2.6L 30-valve v6 that revs to 9700rpm and puts out over 300hp. It would, of course, sound magical at speed. The body and chassis would be built primarily out of carbon fiber and the whole car would weigh in at something like 2000lbs. This would put it in the acceleration ballpark of a 360 Challenge Stradale, but the Dino would probably have better corning and braking.

    The car would be very narrowly focused for track use with no radio, no trunk, no spare tire, perhaps no roof and no air conditioning... and it would be $120K to $140K.

    Ridiculous? Yeah. Overpriced? Definitely. Fast as hell and fun to drive? HELL YEAH! Sounds like a Ferrari to me.
     
  4. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
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    [QUOTE=Maverix
    You're American arent you?

    Last I checked, yes.

    For some of us lightweight small 2 seater roadsters are "proper" sports cars.

    Yup. I do own a Europa, the Elise of 30 years ago.



    It never went away.

    But it's changed. Modern sports cars are heavy and over powered.


    No he doesnt. In fact if you tried that in a Mk1 Elise with its lousy brakes you would likely end up in the hedge.

    Maybe YOU would. I stay out of hedges as a habit.



    So it should be in a sports car. Why do you need it? Twice the price and HP?


    I agree. Frilly stuff is the modern approach.


    A 360 wouldnt see which way it went old boy and a Stradale would have to be driven bloody hard by a decent Hand to keep the Elise behind.

    I agree.


    It isnt retro it is classical engineering race bred philosophy. Performance through lightweight.

    That's the Lotus philosophy, yes.


    Everything about the Elise is modern race car tech. Quite why or how you find that retro lord alone knows.

    The engine management systems are as complex as a modern Ferrari? I don't think so. It's a light car with a great frame and suspension and just enough HP to lure unsuspecting drivers into hedges.



    Carpets, air con, 4wd, cup holders, 12 speaker audio systems all add weight. Weight is the killer of any sports car.

    I DO own a Europa! Yes, that's why the "Modern approach" is high HP: Americans in particular want all that frilly stuff, and you need high HP to move it all quickly. You've really been proving my point all along, yet you seem to disagree that the old school is engineering and lightness while the new school is frills, high HP and weight as a trade off.

    Hence why the 360 should *never* be uttered in the same breathe as a Dino, because it is a fat, over weight and clumsy.

    Well, I wouldn't be THAT harsh; the 360 is a wonderful car but it's the modern approach. Like you so eloquently have pointed out.



    Now the Stradale at least goes someway to acknowledging this.

    I'll take that as true at face value. Less weight, more HP. That's the retro approach! LOL

    Ken
     
  5. imperial83

    imperial83 F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    May 14, 2004
    2,892
    Actually, although Ferrari directly does not care how much the used car sells for their dealerships that carry old Ferraris and take orders for new ones do care. The dealerships would not be able to survive simply on new car orders.
     
  6. Aureus

    Aureus Formula 3

    The dealerships carry old Ferraris yes, but they don't care so much about how much they cost, as to how much they paid. Even if a 355 only cost 50,000 dollars, the dealerships would be happy to take them if the trade in was say, 40,000. As long as they can get a nice enough margin the dealerships don't care about the real price.
     
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  8. Maverix

    Maverix Karting

    Apr 26, 2004
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    Let it grow on you. I thought they had killed the looks with the Mk2 compared to the Mk1, but it has finally started to really grow on me. The looks have become awesome now. As for having some legs, well the damn thing will do over 140mph....how much more legs do you want it to have????
     
  9. Maverix

    Maverix Karting

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  10. Slim

    Slim Formula 3

    Oct 11, 2001
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    richard
    tip:

    if you take a set of brackets, you know, these things [] and put the word quote inside them and then put a bunch of text from the person you are replying to, and then when you are done with his words and ready to go back to your own you put another set of brackets with a slash and quote, like this /quote, then the words of another person will be offset from your own and we'll all be able to better figure out who is saying what and when.
     
  11. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
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  13. sjb509

    sjb509 Guest

    Why not take the basic design of the 4.2L Maser engine and chop off it in half to make a V-4 and use forced induction to get 250 reliable horsepower.

    If the Elise is a success in the US, it shows that a small maker of exotic vehicles (even with Toyota power) can be successful selling "cheaper" cars.

    2.4L supercharged V-4, 3.3L V-6 optional. Lower maintenance should be a key design point. Minor services that were $2k would absolutely kill the car. 15k service $500, 30k service <$1k.
    6-speed (F1 is an option).
    No radio (but a hole for one if inclined).
    No power seats or heavy advanced climate control other than basic A/C.
    gtb or gts.
    Aluminum chassis and body (CF too expensive stock, but a CF body option would be cool).
    Myriad of wheel, suspension, bodyword options from the base car.
    2200 lb weight goal, but probably would be more like 2500 in the end.
    Sold as a Fiat elsewhere in the world, but Maserati here.
    Base MSRP<$50,000, loaded pushing $75k.

    It wouldn't hurt Ferrari's image, would enhance Fiat's, and would give Maserati a car in the US to compete with the Boxster, Z4, Elise. The current Maser Spyder is more a competitor for the 911 or SL500. I didn't think Fiat had any restrictions on the Maserati yearly production, unlike the self-inposed 4000/car limit of Ferrari.

    Crank up a production line at a Fiat factory and watch even more revenue come in.

    Calling it a Maserati would also insulate the 328 or 348 owners from a huge hit in depreciation. The base car would be a stripper with light weight a high performance. The buyer could option the car out to a more luxurious (albeit heavier) car that was still better than a Boxster performance-wise.

    BTW, why not call it the Maserati Sei, which would be the number of championships MS would have with Ferrari by the time the car is ready for 2006 release.
     
  14. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

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  15. StoryBook

    StoryBook F1 Rookie
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    Holy Cow Rick, we've got to get you in the gym and put some meat on them bones!:)
     
  16. Maverix

    Maverix Karting

    Apr 26, 2004
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    David Crompton
     
  17. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
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    I try to avoid Europas like the plague due to the God awful looks :)

    The S1 and S2 DO have a bizarre look to them. My TC with the cut down rear is actually quite balanced. Pictures don't do it justice; when I first saw one in the flesh I couldn't believe how pretty it was. I wanted a Europa for the drive, not the looks, although over time I've become quite fond of it's looks. But I can't argue taste. Some people think a 348 is better looking than a 308, so there.



    Well frankly a crap gearbox is a crap gearbox to me and there is no excuse for it. Personally Id have just nicked the entire assembly out of an Mx5 and used that because it is still the best gearbox I have ever used.

    The Renault gearbox in the Europa is excellent; it's the linkage that's the problem. It's long and heavy, and the bearings/U joints are frequently neglected. Lots of people have fabricated a cable shift or gone the Aardvark route for Europas with stunning results. But this is illegal in ASP. Others have tossed in a straight cut Hewland box; again illegal for ASP and a Europa can't hang on a larger track with the big boys due to lack of straight line speed.



    Hey, dont blame us if you lot couldnt build a decent engine :)

    American engines are great for what Americans wanted: power plus reliability at the expense of weight and handling, so they're low revving and heavy. That's not what most people HERE want, but GM, Ford, etc. are not competeing with Ferrari and Lotus. I hate those lumps too. I would say modern American engines are much better, but it's hard to get excited about too many of them.



    I'll conceed I'm not up on the Toyota powerplant;

    The major difference is that it is much smaller, not much less complicated in the engine management systems.

    Point taken.


    70's European electronics!! Eeeek shudder. Yeah, sorry about them!

    That's okay. It keeps me in the garage instead of cruising the bars at night. I'd say 75% of Lucas troubles are bad grounds. Once you get them sorted, and replace the switches where you can, and install proper fuses, and replace the wire with a heaftier gauge, Lucas is just fine! LOL (Did you hear Lucas made a vacuum cleaner? It's the only thing they make that doesn't suck.)


    You can keep the heavy brigade. Ill stick to proper sports cars :)

    Having said all that of course and to completely shoot my own argument full of holes, what I would really love is a 365 GT2+2. Im not allowed one by the other half though because, and I quote,..."real Ferraris dont have 4 seats". No, she wont listen to me either

    Hey, nothing wrong with a 365! I love those, as would my kids. My budget is more along the Mondial lines, but the way the 456 prices are falling maybe in a few years I'll try one.

    Ken
     
  18. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
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    OK, a fun thread for the sake of discussion...

    With the price of the "entry level" Ferrari now at about $200K, is it time for Ferrari to re-introduce the "Dino" concept? I'm not suggesting badging it as a Dino, but rather a car made in the Dino philosophy. I'm thinking a small, lightweight, great handling mid-engine car like the Lotus Elise, with a 3 liter, 300 HP V-6. Call it a Ferrari "306 Dino" (in the spirit of the "360 Modena" and "612 Scaglietti") with the numbers meaning the same as they did in the original Dino series (displacement/cylinders).

    This car would be priced around $100K.

    Who is with me?

    While we're designing it, what else should it have?

    Birdman
     
  19. dwhite

    dwhite F1 Rookie

    There was a thread on this a while back about having a entry level F car. Many opinions were shared. IMO, Ferrari is not looking to go down market with their product, it certainly would not help their reputation. If you can't get one that makes it all the more desirable.

    Also, as someone said why paint the Mona Lisa twice.
     
  20. darth550

    darth550 Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Maserati? :)

    DL
     
  21. rob

    rob F1 Rookie

    May 22, 2002
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    I'm sure it will never happen but since you said this is a fun thread I'll tell you what I'd like to see. I would love to see Ferrari come out with a car to compete with the SLK and Boxster and Z4, another words something in the 50K range. I would like it to be designed by Pininfarina, with a mid-engine V-8, No Nav. system, no traction control, no heated seats, a 6 speed with the gated shifter, a basic sports car. Basically a modernized 308.
     
  22. classic308

    classic308 F1 Veteran

    Jan 9, 2004
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    I've already stated that Maserati should do a Boxster type car. Take Alfa's V-6, throw timing chains on it, develop it enough to call it a Maserati motor, and have a targa-type top. Support a racing series with this car.....
     
  23. Dutchman

    Dutchman F1 Veteran
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    They could make a Dino like Porsche makes the Boxster. Cheaper and therefore better accesible a larger crowd that wants to experience a small part of the myth.
     
  24. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Take the Alfa 6 cylinder, put it in a smaller version of the award winning but now cancelled (it threatened the Maser) 8C showcar and call it a Alfa Romeo 6C (history here), sell for $50 - $60 with racing series tagged on to Alfa's already successful touring car program.
     
  25. Tenney

    Tenney F1 Rookie
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    Feb 21, 2001
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    A Ferrari take on the Lotus Elise/Exige would be cool. Dino'd be as good a name as any for this one, IMO.
     
  26. dakharris

    dakharris Two Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 7, 2001
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    Ferrari has already introduced a lower-priced alternate brand...Maserati. If you want to go cheaper, the company alternative is Fiat.
     
  27. Cavallini

    Cavallini Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,818
    I predict this "entry-level" car will be introduced in a few years, but it will not be done by Ferrari or Maserati because something so inexpensive would destroy the brand.
    Alfa Romeo will target this segment with something like the Boxster, Elise et al, but in the Italian automotive tradition.
    Give Montezemolo ten years and you will see the legendary Italian brands producing superb specimens from the Enzo to the Fiat.


    Forza,


    Cavallini
     
  28. jaturon

    jaturon Formula 3

    Oct 25, 2004
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    I think a 50k entry level Ferrari would be detrimental to Ferrari name as it is associated with super sports car. Maserati is a good entry level already so no need to use a Ferrari brand.
     

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