The significance of number 27 in racing--------------

http://www.ferrariownersclub.co.uk/happenings/2004/november/27/report.asp

 

Interesting article. Thanks for posting it!

 

I didn't see any mention of it, but Alan Jones won the 1980 Championship in car #27.

I think it was questionable judgement when Bernie decided to revamp the car-numbering system. Another thing I don't understand is why he seems to dislike the display of numbers on the cars. They are as discreet as possible.

 

Again you guys are missing the point. Bernie is NOT interested in the racing and thus does not care if the rest of the world and spectators, etc. cannot follow the race. All he wants is everybody to watch from TV, supplied by him so his program can list the order and his TV can make him more bucks.

The guy is a anti-racing jackass! ... and we wonder why F1 is in the current mess ... well I don't. Yes I understand that F1 is a business, but sport must come first ... but Bernie does not believe, or see that.

Pete
ps: The writers comments regarding Prost are of a complete jackass too. Prost DID many times drive out of his skin. I can think of a race in McLarens against his team mate Lauda when they both used the grass to pass slower cars and destroyed the rest of the grid. I can even think of Japan when he and Senna obliterated the rest of the field and he expertly held out Senna lap after exciting lap ... yes Senna and Prost colided in the end, but Prost beat Senna in the same car and same team, with the team behind Senna as Senna was their future. You do not win as many races as that man by being scared of a race car, and not stepping up when it counted. Gilles would have matured to this level after his first WC, read all the articles about the man, he was not an idiot, just a real racer that did not give up ... just like MS has now (but it took a while).

Senna IMO had a few screws loose, especially near the end of his career as racing had completely overtaken his life and thus in a way it was fitting that he died doing the only thing it appears that meant anything to him. While Gilles was 200% a racer, he actually had a life off the track, ie. wife and family, etc. ... Senna worked very hard not to .

 

I follow you, Pete. I just don't get what it is he has against numbers being displayed. It strikes me almost as a form of obsessive-compulsive behavior, which I guess would fit him just right.

 

LOL!!!, I guess numbers means less sponsorship space, which from a business point of view is not good.

I, like you, simply think the numbers look great ... nothing like a white number on a scarlet red Ferrari race car ...

Pete

 

Along the same lines in Moto GP, Kevin Schwantz always had the number 34 on his bike. He said it would only be replaced by the number 1. So, until he won the championship, the bikes were #1 - 20 something based on position the previous year (with a gap at Schwantz's position) and #34 on Schwantz's bike.

I bet Bernie wouldn't have allowed that individuality.

 

Many interesting comments you guys bring up. One I might add myself is, that SF Ferrari tried to retire #27 after Gilles' death, but the FIA wouldn't have any of it. Which makes a lot of sense, since numbers are so hard to come by...

I totally agree with Jack's comments on the invisible numbers on the cars. This is totally ridiculous and I quite don't understand it. If you read about Bernie and his life and personality, the guy is Mr. Overanal compulsive who needs everything neato and perfecto. He lines up the teams trucks in one line, the guy is nuts, but I digress. So it is hard to understand why such a control freak wouldn't impose a rule making the numbers look all the same in the same location the same size. Which would make actually sense and the spectators lifes easier, but I guess that's where Pete's argument comes in...

Speaking of Pete's comments, I'm just waiting for some of the Senna fans to respond...especially the comments I picked out above.

And speaking of screws loose, Gilles was an expert in that. Remember the helicopter duell with Pironi, another nutcase? The one who chickens out over Monaco with less fuel looses? I'm no Senna fan, but he did have a life outside the track. He loved model airplanes and his family meant a lot to him. I'll leave out the subject of his bedroom life, that's up for Piquet to comment...But the point is, he did have a life outside racing. And Gilles was just as nuts.

 

Regarding Senna having a life outside his racing ... hmmm, well the books I read stated that he divorced his wife so he could concentrate fully on his racing, he had no kids ... etc. Yes he has a family, but was so immersed in F1 that he had no time for a partner (just flings) ... and ofcourse there is nothing wrong with that

Yes all these guys are nuts in some way or another ... I just find it amazing that Senna could live only on F1 more than IMO any other driver. Hence my theory regarding his tragic accident ... he could feel the end of his career coming and was not happy about it (but the signs were there, and most confidents do indicate that he was down/depressed), the Williams sucked and MS was putting him under huge pressure ... he was over driving trying to stay in the only thing that made his life seem whole. Sad really.

I used to think MS was like that, but he proved me wrong with his young family.

Pete

 

We're hijacking this thread (but maybe we're done with #27 anyway). Again I don't want to touch the reasons for his divorce. If you want to get the scoop, read Piquet's interview in Penthouse (assuming there is some truth to that). Aside from that I agree that he was incredibly dedicated to F1.

I also take issue with the Williams being called "sucky". It wasn't. It was the top of the field. Just read the book about Damon Hill's or MS' career. Both books say what I remember myself from that year's press: Senna WC on Williams was a given. The Williams had issues though, that's true. The reason I'm so picky about this is, that I believe we have seen the real battle between MS and Senna and MS won it. Whether he would have won it for 1994 without the fatal accident, that I can't say.

I agree with that he had some sense of things and was depressed. That's what everybody said as well. True.

 

i grew up w/ gilles as my hero...since his death, each of my race cars or bikes have been numbered "27".

only once w/ wera motorcycle racing sanctioning body was "27" taken...i then went to "127".

i remember crying when i saw the crash. gilles was like no other.


btw...gilles27....you may have the best f-chat screen name!!!

pest,

pcb

 

Can you tell us what the interview said? Was Piquet insinuating that Senna was a bit of a 'Ralf'?!

 

Sorta. He mentioned, that Senna's marriage with Xuxa was just for show and to maintain a facade behind which he hid his homosexuality.

Of course one has to know, that Piquet and Senna hated each other, especially Piquet hated Senna for stealing his thunder. And Piquet was a bit of a loose cannon. OTOH he made this comments after his career, so it was not about intimidating a rival and Piquet always spoke his mind. Also this allegation was the only questionable one in the whole interview, everything else was ok, so maybe this factoid was true too?

OTOH: Who cares? Senna was one of the best drivers ever. What he did after hours isn't really my business.

 

Ah, that is why my theory regarding Senna's accident makes so much sense.

I remember very clearly that we all though that Senna was going to walk the '94 championship, because the '93 Williams was miles ahead ... BUT and this is the big BUT the '94 Williams was NOT ... yeah it did not suck, but it was definitely NOT the car of the field. If I am not mistaken '94 meant the return to sprung suspension and the banning of active ... Williams did not get this transistion right and the car was very, very nervous ... hence Senna spinning and scoring NO points so far in the '94 season.

This with Senna struggling with his future and F1 is the only thing in his life, put the poor man under enormous pressure. He was phoning Prost, Ron Dennis and was clearly NOT happy in the Williams environment. Senna became the Senna that we all admired BECAUSE of Ron Dennis. It was a bit like the Chapman and Clark relationship, Patrick Head and Alan Jones, etc. Yes he had the speed before McLaren but Ron Dennis made him the champion!

Senna had left his family (and by this I mean McLaren, remember he suffered a few slack McLaren years to stay with the McLaren family ... until it became a necessity to move) and he was depressed at Williams ... some of this is because the car was not up to scratch, and some of this was that he just did not fit in at Williams. Frank in particular is a no sucking up to drivers sort of guy ... Senna needed to have the red carpet rolled out and to be treated like the hero he is/was, and his ego massaged.

Thus we arrived at Imola ... amazingly MS was leading the championship and all us nuts were loving the battle, but a little amazed at what I thought was a string of bad luck for Senna (but my doubts about the car was growing). Senna managed to hold the nervous beast together to grab pole ... signs of a fast but unbalanced car, being pushed by a master.

The race started and Senna, as usual tried to break the field by devastating fast laps straight from the start. BUT MS was/is the master of this too, and thus every time Senna looked into his mirrors of checked positions, MS was right there, able to hang on to the back of Senna.

Senna though was having to drive the skin of this not so perfect Williams, and I guess MS was driving very hard too ... but Senna's car was nervous and pushing the now slightly confused and down Senna (should I retire, what will I do with out F1, etc.).

After the yellow flag incident, Senna again tried to pull away ... but simply could not!, this was pushing self doubt to the limit and with no points and media pressure that he was going to walk the season, just made him push harder and harder and harder ... and unfortunately even past his amazing level of skill and he lost it, and the rest is history.

A story not to dissimilar to many race track accidents, the driver pushed passed his limit due to very high pressure.

If fate had been much kinder, he would have spared Senna's life and Senna could have accepted that F1 was not the be all of his life anymore and retired from the sport ... not on top, but gracefully understanding that the time had come. Oh well what can we do ... history has been written.

Pete

 

In general I agree with your very nice description, but I still disagree on the real strength of the Williams. Instead of quoting a bunch of books, I give you one solid argument for why that car was heads above the rest: Damon Hill almost won the title with it!

I know you have to accept that argument cause we think about the same about that guy...Seriously the FIA kept the race artifically interesting by taking MS out of the season for several races. And I also agree that the Williams was very twitchy etc and would agree with your overall assessment of Senna's situation. But aside all that I think the Williams was on par if not better than the Benetton.

 

Uhmmmmm, back to tonyh's original post, please note that the racing career of our young lad Zupra has been started by the late Speedy308 with his gift of the Child Advocates racing kart at the FFQC.........

#27!!!!!!!!

Which was a tribute to the Ferrari F1 team, along with car #28 in the Houston Mayor's Cup race.

Good luck Zupra, make Mario Andretti and Michelle Alboreto proud!

See Zupra's avatar for pic...........

 

From mid season on ... as much as Damon is no racer, he is very, very good at setting up cars. Given time Damon turned a nervous car into a competitive car.

Unfortunately I do not believe we saw a 100% fair and square battle between Senna and MS. BUT we did see a battle and it can never be 100% fair in motorsport anyway ... so it was as good as it was ever going to be, but there will always be justifications.

If MS had not been disqualified he would have walked it ... and Williams after '93 should have walked it, Senna should have been able to win ever race (after all Prost nearly did in '93 ... I think I am right with the year), they tripped up ... and I reckon if you spoke to Patrick Head he would admit that.

Pete
ps: Image how Prost winning so easily in a Williams and then Senna struggling must have eaten away at Senna ... in the end the final battle win DID go to Prost. He came back from retirement and walked the championship in the Williams, Senna could not even win a race!

 

Good point.

IMHO: In the end the final battle did go to Prost because he is ALIVE. That's why I think Villeneuve is not only a tragic, but flawed hero: He was an accident waiting to happen. The smarter champions live to tell about. And with that, we're back at the discussion of #27.

 

the year of senna's death, the williams started off a real problem. the car was almost undriveable. while even senna could not make the car finish well, he did capture the poll in each of the first races. can you imagine how that car was driven to get on poll...he was masterfull!!!!!!!!

had he lived to finish the season, he would have been crowned champion again. the car seemed to come along mid season for hill. and while damon was capable...he could not carry senna's helmet bag.

shumi will never really know! senna was the great one.

 

Way cool... good luck, Zupra

 

I thought about this statement for a moment, and there's a definite tragic reality about it. Both these men died doing what they loved, but arguably in a manner and circumstance that allowed their competitiveness to get the better of them. A refusal of accepting that, on this day, perhaps the elements aren't coming together just so and maybe 2nd place will just have to do. Think back over the years and I wonder for how many others this applies. Jim Clark? Maybe, since it was a meaningless, foul-weather F2 race in which he was pushing hard. What about any others?

 

Gilles' accident was particularly tragic as it was a tad senseless. Without that lap he would have been 2nd on the grid. Good enough to carry the fight to Pironi.

Thinking about other ones, not that many of the modern era come to mind. Brambilla and De Angelis didn't do anything unusual. Alboreto "just" drove the car as it was meant to be. Ratzenberger just did his job.

But there was Hawthorne (not sure I got the right Brit here), who died in a stupid street accident on a British country road in the rain while racing his friend.

What about Bellof and Manfred Winkelhock? If memory serves me right, they both ended their lives independently at Eau Rouge. "Just" regular racing accidents or pushing the envelope too hard trying to prove something?

 

Rob Walker (Rest in Peace) INSISTED he and Mike were NOT racing......

Hawthorne had only days before had fitted a rudimentary "throttle lock" on his car as a crude "cruise control".....

Conjecture said it stuck on........

I suppose Hawthorne could have been racing HIM.

 

Gilles27, poignant comment.

While Senna and Gilles would have probably got the result they were after if they had settled for 2nd on the grid or in the race, it hardly what motorracing or any sport is about ... ie. limiting the amount you push yourself.

I think though both Senna and Gilles did not understand that the price in motorsport (especially a championship like F1) is actually winning the WC, not the fastest lap or race win, etc. This drivers like Lauda and Prost fully understood and thus their acceptance that on some days they would be beaten.

In hindsight Senna (IMO) should have controlled his pace better and if that meant that MS was pushing him ... well so be it. In the end if Senna had finished 2nd in that race, he would have given himself more time to work with the team to rid the car of its gremlins and eventually triumphed over MS ... maybe.

The problem with settling for 2nd in any sport is that you give the opposition a very important win in the mind game area. Senna and Gilles both understood the mind game stuff big time (and so does MS ... which is why RB is a blythering mess of self doubt, as is every other driver that has teamed with MS ). Thus Gilles wanted that pole to stick it firmly up the arsehole Pironi (well in Gilles mind, Pironi was an arsehole ... ) and Senna did not want to give MS a mental win, ie. he beat Senna fair and square on the track.

Gilles would have matured, Senna had but still was possessed with winning every session ... again IMO be was obsessed with F1 way beyond anybody before or since. Lauda and Prost had matured as has MS now (but it took fncken ages ... of many stupid mistakes, piling the pressure on to himself, etc.) and they walk away mentally informing the other drivers, that they may have snuck in a win today but don't worry we WILL get them next time, and the next time, etc. ... ie. they were lucky .

In the end I believe we owe it to ourselves to accomplish things with our short time in this place, not just to tick off the days ... settling for 2nd in the WC after spending all your life getting there, IMO is equivalent to just ticking off the days (ofcourse unless you are giving it your absolute all ... and if you should crash in this process and die, well sad as it would be, atleast you were giving it your best shot!).

Pete's thoughts
ps: Deaths like Bruce McLaren and Alboreto were particularily sad because it was not a case of drivers pushing themselve too hard, but the car failing ... just senseless. Yes it is a risk in the sport but in Bruces case it was a mechanic not fastening the bodywork correctly that caused the car to crash ... ... in a simple test session, nothing to win and nobody to beat!

 

I thought that Gilles had already set his time and was actually on his in-lap when he crashed?