The strangest leak you probably have ever seen | FerrariChat

The strangest leak you probably have ever seen

Discussion in '308/328' started by Svito, Nov 18, 2020.

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  1. Svito

    Svito Karting

    May 13, 2013
    90
    Miami
    Full Name:
    Svito Puko
    Hello everybody, I am restoring the engine of my 1983 308QV and we have bumped in something my mechanic has never seen in more than 30 years of work with Ferrari engines.

    See the pictures attached.

    As you can see, there is a part (upper left) of the cavity between the engine block and the cover of the clutch housing that was filled with water and muddy cristal particles. This cavity is supposed to be empty.
    We have performed a pressure test with compressed air to see if the problem was the inner bolt on the top of the housing (the other one you see below seals the oil flow inside the block and it is OK) but we did not notice any leak.
    So where the hell this water did it come from?
    Anyone of you has ever heard of such a leak?


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  2. Vonbarron

    Vonbarron Formula 3
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 26, 2014
    2,261
    Westside Mofo
    Full Name:
    S B
    I had a coolant leak in same area of my 83, I can’t remember how but I tightened up a couple nuts and it stopped
     
  3. Svito

    Svito Karting

    May 13, 2013
    90
    Miami
    Full Name:
    Svito Puko
    Thank you Vonbarron, your comment makes me feel more calm about this issue.
    Should I replace that bolt or just unloose it, re-seal it and put it back?

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  4. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 26, 2001
    14,449
    Canada
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    Newman
    Take that plug out and put sealant on it. The only other possibility is porosity in the block but the water jacket only comes down to the top of that rib you see between the two head stud bosses.
     
  5. Svito

    Svito Karting

    May 13, 2013
    90
    Miami
    Full Name:
    Svito Puko
    Thank you Newman. Indeed I do hope it can be just a matter of that plug but according to the pressure test we have done it seems there was no leak out of it.
    If the cause is porosity I cannot do anything to fix it.
     
    waymar likes this.
  6. waymar

    waymar Formula 3

    Sep 2, 2008
    1,354
    Northeast, PA - USA
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    Wayne Martin
    I have seen similar. Maybe condensation??? Thought about drilling a small weep hole in the low spot.....
     
  7. theunissenguido

    theunissenguido F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jan 21, 2004
    2,668
    Argent/Brasil
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    Guido
    Isnt the motor supposed to be hot to do this pressure test ?
     
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  8. pshoejberg

    pshoejberg Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 22, 2007
    1,824
    Denmark
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    Peter H
    That plug could have sealed on it's own again. It is not uncommon for these aluminum plugs to develop leaks over time and leaks can cure when escaped cooling fluid crystallize etc. There are new plugs available from the usual vendors if you tear the threads during removal.

    Best, Peter
     
  9. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    Apr 1, 2004
    16,329
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    SMG
    Porosity is a known problem, but more for oil then water... But it does happen. Resin impregnation fixes that.
    More likely that it's the plug. Personally if I couldn't track the leak back to a specific point, I'd strip the block all they way down, and get it checked for cracks... And since I'm at it.. Have it resin impregnated.
     
  10. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    28,996
    socal
    I have seen it too but to a much lesser extent also on 308. I can't remember is 2 or 4 valve. I can't remember if I have seen that on other motors cases. My guess from what I have seen in past is also condensation. Usually if the plug leaks there is a witness trail and you do not seem to have that.
     
  11. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2010
    1,521
    London, UK
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    Derek W
    As Michael above says, maybe it only leaks when hot. I found the plugs in brass, pm me your address if you want one.
     
  12. Ferraridoc

    Ferraridoc F1 World Champ
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    Jun 20, 2012
    17,219
    Gold Coast, Aust.
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    Patrick
    Someone pressure cleaned the engine in the past and forced some water in there?
     
  13. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2010
    1,217
    Georgia
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    Wade Williams
    I had an oil leak from the starter bolt years ago and speculated it was the center allen plug copper washer. This was 1995 and the 328 was not that old. Out of warranty and the owner wasn't keen on having his engine pulled and torn apart for that. I measured, drilled a hole on the lower corner. A lot of oil poured out. I then measured again and used a hole saw to cut a hole where the allen plug was. Pulled the plug, changed the clearly leaking copper washer and put it all back together. Owner was happy. Leak was gone.
    I think that corrosion could easily be condensation build up in a confined area. That aluminum plug is a bugger to get out and you will be replacing it as Ferrari never intended it to be reused. Best to you. These cars are always an adventure.
    As I tell people all the time, the tough part about working on these cars is how many things you have to figure out and fix that you will never see again.
     
    Supernaut, waymar and smg2 like this.
  14. Brian Harper

    Brian Harper F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 17, 2006
    4,078
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    Brian Harper
    I had that on my QV as well. I just assumed it was leaking in from above somehow and didn't do anything to prevent it from recurring. I wonder what it looks like now...
     
  15. Supernaut

    Supernaut Karting

    Dec 3, 2019
    152
    Annapolis MD
    Full Name:
    John Panek

    Sorry if I'm not understanding correctly - you used a hole saw on the clutch housing cover, then fixed the leak. What does one use to patch up the hole on the cover, if anything?
     
  16. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2010
    1,217
    Georgia
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    Wade Williams
    We used a rubber plug to cover the hole. The cavity actually holds nothing, except escaped oil in this case. even if it were left open, there would be no issue. It is just empty space.
     
  17. Svito

    Svito Karting

    May 13, 2013
    90
    Miami
    Full Name:
    Svito Puko
    Of course not, we performed a pressure test only with air (to see if bubbles were coming out) and also with pressurized water but the engine ain't be hot since is there (as you can see from the pictures).
    Since I am about to perform the engine block grinding I will ask the shop to welder those two bolts (water and oil).
     
  18. Svito

    Svito Karting

    May 13, 2013
    90
    Miami
    Full Name:
    Svito Puko
    yes but water and/or oil leak could rotten the seal in the long run
     
  19. Svito

    Svito Karting

    May 13, 2013
    90
    Miami
    Full Name:
    Svito Puko
    you should remove the clutch housing cover to check it. Alternatively, you could inspect the seal all around, if there is a big outer leak somehow you should see it.
     
  20. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Apr 1, 2004
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    SMG
    Do not recommend welding those... Bad idea.
    The oil plug is meant to be removed for cleaning out the passages,esp after any kind of tank cleaning.

    And there's also the real PITA of welding Ferrari castings... If the welder hasn't touched a Ferrari casting... Not the time to learn. Casting porosity is a real problem and makes welding all kinds of 'fun'.

    Recommend remove and replace plugs. Oh and Ferrari used tapered metric threading, yeah it's a thing... Unusual but real.
     
  21. Svito

    Svito Karting

    May 13, 2013
    90
    Miami
    Full Name:
    Svito Puko

    Yeah, also the grinding shop didn't recommend to weld. We will eventually seal them with two-component metal
     
    Supernaut likes this.

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