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THEIR ABOUT TO GET CAUGHT OVER IRAQ

Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by ART360, Mar 21, 2004.

  1. ART360

    ART360 Guest

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  3. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I think the Supreme Court will either agree with Cheney that it is a matter of National Security or they will state that its non justiciable because its a decision resting with the Executive branch
     
  4. zjpj

    zjpj F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    agreed
     
  5. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    whatever. take it from whence it comes.

    but here is some education for you art.
    the oil markets are as free and open as you can get, in that the base price of oil is set by the exchanges in london and new york, and differentials to that are set by traders in the physical market. obviously everything under the sun affects the price one way or the other.

    you cannot in any real way 'steal iraq's oil'. the way america is going about it at the moment is to give the advantage to US and allied oil companies to work with somo to maximize the current fields and for drilling concessions on the rest of the country. in time this oil will come to the market, through somo. exxon, bp, shell etc will make their money on the development side and take a small slice of the sales price. the rest of the considerable profit will go to iraq. the price that is set for this oil will fluctuate per the market forces at the time - not some evil conspiracy.

    now here is an addtl thought/question for you:
    most people in the USA, especially on the left, are adamant that the USA become less dependent on foreign oil. this is not possible unless there is a dramatic increase in alternative energy use and conservation, because the continental states simply don't have enough to drill for. but what people are really asking for is not to be at the mercy of foreign suppliers. i think we are happy to pay the price to have the oil delivered to our doorstep as it has been for the last 50 years, as long as the supplier doesn't try to pull a fast one. enter opec. opec currently regulates (very effectively) its output to maintain a high price. iraq is part of opec and will vote on this matter in the near future. my guess is that they start playing that game a little more in our favor, than if they had still been under saddam, or if elf and lukoil were the ones involved in the new drilling.
    so in effect, by allowing the allied oil companies to have first right at new projects, and with somo on our side, we may actually be able to affect the prices of oil down slightly (no promise of miracles here because the saudis still run the biggest taps of any of them). hence, while you are condeming cheney and our oil companies for actions which have been twisted around pretty severely to suit your journalist, the end result might be lower prices.....hmmm point to ponder?

    don't bore us all with a repeat of the litany of reasons you don't think we should have gone in there in the first place - we're there, get over it.
     
  6. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    Ross:

    You missed the point: they're about to get caught, even if the Supreme Court whitewashes this. Too many people will leak this. The facts are finally catching up with them over this. Of course we need the oil. I suspect this invasion was a means to keep the price down to a level that our economy needs for growth. The issue really isn't about the war any more, other than its a morass that isn't going to resolve itself, its about what to do you with leaders that lie, and people die as a result. Let them off the hook, without any consequences? Time will tell.

    As for the oil issue, I'm buying a hybrid for commuting, what about you?

    Art
     
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  8. Aureus

    Aureus Formula 3

    Keep oil prices down eh? I've got this funny feeling that oil prices have been going up, I mean I'm paying between $2.10 and $2.30 a gallon, that is what the newspapers have been complaining about right?

    The easiest and most stable way of keeping oil flowing is to simply pay cash to the dictators and keep them in their palaces with their 300 car garages. Going over there and fighting a war, disrupting the flow of oil, driving up prices and over all making things harder on your self is not the way to keep oil flow stable.

    And a quick edit, what exactly are they getting caught doing? Allowing lobbyists to influence their policies in some way? Well damn, lets hang them for it. I mean we can’t have lobbyists influencing policies! God no, lets go get those pro-abortion lobbyists, anti-gun lobbyists, anti-smoking lobbyists, pro-gun lobbyists, anti-tax lobbyists, pro-tax lobbyists, liberal lobbyists, conservative lobbyists, PETA lobbyists, NAFTA lobbyists, NRA lobbyists, zoo lobbyists, farm lobbyists *goes on for several hours* out of Washington!
     
  9. lionsfan54

    lionsfan54 Karting

    Nov 7, 2003
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    Don't confuse oil prices with gas prices. There's a lot more that goes into gas prices than just the price of crude.

    With fewer refineries every year the risk of disruption in the supply chain goes up. The smallest problem now spikes prices.

    Are less refineries because of enviro-wackos? Or because of Bush controlled greedy oil companies? I'll leave that to the pundits to answer, I have no idea.
     
  10. Aureus

    Aureus Formula 3

    Yes I am aware that gas prices and crude prices are quite separate (IE California pays more because we never build any more refineries and ship the oil we drill off our own coast off to get refined). Since I was unable to get a 2-3 year chart of crude prices I decided to use gas prices as its nice and easy to relate too.
     
  11. C. Losito

    C. Losito Formula Junior

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    No agenda here...
     
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  13. tifosi69

    tifosi69 Formula 3

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    Art, you can blame the Bush family and administration all you want but the TRUE crooks in the equation that are driving the prices up are NOT the Saudis or even OPEC but rather the middle-men brokers! THEY are the ones that are causing this problem. When is the last time OPEC met? Oh, and let's not forget the environmentalists morons. We have enough oil in Anwar and Colorado but can we get it? No, we are too worried about displacing animals.
     
  14. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    You guys do realized that here in north america espeacialy in Canada there is more oil in the ground here then anywere else in the world? Why do we need in import so much crude when we have all we need right in our own backyards? Granted drilling through the Canadian sheild would be very difficult because it's solid rock and tundra but it can be done.

    I just don't understand the worlds obssesion with getting oil for the middel east. Is it really cheaper to buy it from them in the long run? Why not use the resources this continent has already and put an end to opec and the rest of the oil barens in the middel east. No oil, no money, no terrorizim nes,pas?
     
  15. tifosi69

    tifosi69 Formula 3

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    Well said!
     
  16. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
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    Actually very different agendas.

    As their differing opinions about Scalia's recusal on the case in general indicate. Sierra Club filed that Justice Scalia should recuse himself from the case before the Court, Judicial Watch did not.

    JW did not think there was a conflict of interest in the case, SC does.

    Judicial Watch was founded "to serve as an ethical and legal "watchdog" over our government, legal, and judicial systems to promote a return to ethics and morality in our nation's public life." (That's direct from the home page of their website.}

    Doesn't sound like a bunch of "tree huggers" to me.

    Sure, both groups have agendas, just like everyone who posts to one of these does. Doesn't mean the agenda is necessarily conservative or liberal, and it doesn't mean that the agenda is right or wrong. It's just an agenda.
     
  17. Nibblesworth

    Nibblesworth Formula 3
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    *yawn*

    Another rant from a left-wing liberal trying as hard as he can to uncover the vast "Right Wing Conspiracy". Original.

    And, of course, coming from the San Fransisco Gate, a bastion for unbiased and non-partisan thinking, the story *MUST* be true and accurate, and I would be totally suprised if the SFGate didn't properly address Cheney's side.
     
  18. tifosi69

    tifosi69 Formula 3

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    Nibbles, LOL ! Very true, I could NOT care less about the Sierra Club's thoughts on an issue. This country is the greatest economic engine on earth and one of the things required to make the engine RUN is oil, get a life and get over it and GET OUT OF THE WAY OF PROGRESS!! You want to live by candle light and ride in horse and buggies Amish -style, more power to you! But don't expect the rest of the world to go along with you. Remember in ALGORES great literary masterpiece a few years back he claimed one of the WORST inventions ever for "Mother Earth" was the internal combustion engine. What a joke; don't see him riding with secret service in a horse-drawn carriage.
     
  19. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I would guess it has to do with 1 of the world's most profitable & largest industries. Selling Weapons. Its the perfect market for arms sales. If we just pull out the French, Russians, & Chinese will take over & make $Billions selling their weapons to grouchy Camel Humpers
     
  20. androza

    androza Karting

    Nov 4, 2003
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    From what I understand, we don't use any of the oil coming from the middle east, all of our oil comes from around us, South America, the Pacific ocean, etc. All the oil from the Middle East goes to Europe, to Asia. We aren't fighting these wars for ourselves, at least directly. By keeping oil prices down for the rest of the world, we're keeping other 1st world nations from having a reason to develop a large military. As long as we take care of the other 1st world nations, and act as the global policeman, we will remain as the pre eminent super power of our age.
     
  21. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Don't kill the messenger. Neither Art nor the article itself, no matter what city or paper it came from, is the crux of the argument. Face it - no matter what reason there is, and there are many - for Saddam Hussein's regime to be ousted - legally, if Cheney, et al are ruled against in this stage of the game, the documentation has the potential to be one hot potato - even if it's just a few key phrases. The issue is as it was, if released according to Court rulings regarding Freedom of Information Act (FIA), [actions which have been initiated by lawsuits against Energy Task Force (ETF) by co-plaintiffs Judicial Watch (JW) and Sierra Club (SC)], this ruling has the potential to knock the dominoes down. Or not. If it goes against the Defendants, expect to see "No Blood for Oil" early and often in renewed demonstrations. Heck, even if the Defendant prevails in this case, you'll still see and hear it.

    Suppose Bush wins in '04 and Cheney is his running mate: expect both to be impeached, as there will be a Democratic Majority here, there and everywhere. If Kerry wins, as I think he may, still expect Dem rule in both Houses, and unlike the present administration, Polls to be the decision-maker, no matter how many waffles we eat.
     
  22. Ontogenetik

    Ontogenetik Karting

    Nov 2, 2003
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    Progress all you want - http://www.obesity.org
    Until you blow up from "progress"

    Progress = improving the quality of human life, which is more or less the last
    thing taking place in the utterly out of sync US. Proof - visit a looking glass
    or smile at an US attorney who is outspelled by foreign children ... progress does not equal killing humans more efficiently
     
  23. Robin

    Robin F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
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    This could get even worse for the Bushies... 60 Minutes just featured Richard Clark, the White House Counter-Terrorism guru during Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and first half of Bush II administrations. He had some stinging commentary on Bush's handling of intelligence and the terrorism issue as a whole. In a nutshell, he said that Bush was completely unconcerned with terrorism when he entered office...he was more interested in taking out Iraq than dealing with terrorists. Leslie Stahl said that CBS even dug up two witnesses who corraberated Clark's story that he was told by the administration that Iraq was going to be the focus of their efforts.. well before 9/11 even took place. He has a book out now... wonder how all these accusations will stack up against GW..

    -R
     
  24. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    What makes it so sad is that thousands died. What's even worse, is that those who should care, don't. This is exactly how Rome went from a republic to an empire lack of citizenery taking an interest in what occurred, and doing something about it.

    As to the oil: the reason the price is up, is that OPEC cut back on the production to maintain the price of $25.00 a barrel about 1 year ago, thinking that we were going to get the Iraqi oil, and restore production. We did restore production, have it back to about pre-war level, but they keep blowing up the pipelines, and we aren't exporting as much as Saddam did, but Opec didn't increase the production, despite our begging and pleading. $38.00 a barrel now, maybe $50.00 a barrel later. I suspect that the Saudis don't want Junior around in 05. A recent book: Sleeping with the Devil just came out, and its about our relationship with the Saudis, interesting reading. Details their corrupt government, and how that corruption has come to the USA because of their money. The Bush family and friends have had their hands in that till for quite a while.

    While we don't buy much from the middle east, its one market. Cut production, the price rises all over.

    Art
     
  25. Aureus

    Aureus Formula 3

    I suppose you didn't know that virtually every democrat has their hand in that particular trough art355?

    And do you really honestly think America is going to become a Empire run by a life-long Emperor? That is a laughable concept today.

    Andorrza, by keeping oil flowing in the Middle East we're keeping a high supply of oil available to the world market. All the countries we buy oil from could also sell to other nations. If total oil supply decreases (like when OPEC cuts production) prices for everyone go up, that means our prices go up. By keeping oil production up in the Middle East we're directly keeping our own oil prices down, even if we're not buying from the middle east (and we do buy some of our oil from the middle east).
     
  26. Nibblesworth

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    Huh? Get a history book, Art.

    The Republic turned into an Empire when Ceasar crossed the Rubicon in order to hold the position of Consul and ProConsul of Spain (I think it was Span) at the same time. He marched his damn army into Rome and chased out the two other member of the First Triumvirate, Crassus and Pompey, and took over. After hunting down and killing his former political allies, he proclaimed himself Emperor, and his adopted son, Octavian, cemented the tranformation to Empire and renamed himself Augustus.

    It'd be really nice to equate 2004 America to 68 B.C. Rome, but there is very little correlation between the two.

    Just keep in mind that Chicken Little's sky *never* fell.
     
  27. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    art, despite you sincerest wishes, this case will get washed away, largely because it is based on false logic on the cause and effect side, but also because they will claim executive privilege.
    i am glad to see you know how the oil markets work though. and i also commend your purchase of a hybrid - if the rest of america did that we would give opec a big black eye. i cannot do it at the moment because with 3 kids i need a 7 seater, and until the mercedes model comes out in 2006, i am stuck.

    iraq is currently pumping 2.5 mbd. this is as high as pre war, and on its way higher. so this stat is not relevant to the higher price. most of the higher crude price is due to an accumulation of things over the last 2 years: venezuelan strike and more ven news now, hard winters x2, iraq production down and up, opec discipline, and the hidden one - chinese consumption up 30pct on the year surprising everybody. our appetite doesn't wane, and every mom delivers kids to soccer in a 10mpg behemoth.

    part of the reason why gasoline prices are so high in the usa is that we haven't built a new refinery since 1976. nobody wants it in their backyard, so it doesn't happen. so we import gasoline, primarily from venezuela, but also europe. this is a finished product, and therefore carries a higher price, which in turn adds 2-3 times more to the deficit than if we were importing crude.

    as for oil in north america. yes it does exist. some of the reason we aren't drilling for it is down to the tree huggers. but some is just because of where and what it is. it tends to be difficult to get to either in region or climate. it also tends to be very high viscosity stuff which is extremely hard to handle when combined with the geographic and climate variables thrown in. a significant amount of it also happens to be trapped in a solution with sand and shale, which again is difficult to extract. so at the end of the day, you are talking about extraction costs exceeding $15/bbl, for oil that is worth $10-15/bbl less than wti. at current prices, it just barely makes sense to go after it, but for how long? personally i wouldn't invest in that project.
     
  28. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Ive heard a Canadian Co has perfected a way to get oil out of shale a lot cheaper than before
     

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