Thermo time switch troubleshooting? | FerrariChat

Thermo time switch troubleshooting?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by thecarreaper, Sep 16, 2008.

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  1. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    Sep 30, 2003
    18,102
    Savannah
    ok, i bought a Bosch K Jetronic book, and used search on here.

    i still cannot get my 308 to idle like its supposed to cold, you hit the key, and it stays at 1000 rpm or so. this means you have to rev it up a bit to warm it ( helps to make the battery light go out, but thats normal).

    i received the new AAV today from autozone, and it did nothing ( stays closed) just like my current one.

    i am assuming i am not getting a signal from the thermo time switch?


    pn for the AAV is WELLS AC127 , Bosch pn 0280140104 (16216)

    i found the thermo time pn using the search feature to be 0 280 130 217, but i have not removed mine yet.

    the car runs fine, but a low idle cold is not good for the motor or lubricated parts. fast idle should be 1500 or so until it warms up.


    thoughts?

    :)


    ps: i miss carbs ...... but i am learning alot!
     
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
    26,931
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    I wouldn't be suspecting the thermo-time switch for a low cold RPM -- it's only function is to fire the cold start injector for a second or two during starter motor cranking at initial cold start-up to give a lot of initial enrichment for cold light off (i.e., it has nothing to do with how much air, or fuel, is entering the engine during the rest of cold running).

    What is the year/model/version?
     
  3. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    Sep 30, 2003
    18,102
    Savannah
    thanks for your time, its a euro non lamda 308 gtb Qv 1983 vin 44297. 36,000 documented miles.
     
  4. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,931
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #4 Steve Magnusson, Sep 16, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2008
    First, please go to this page:

    http://www.eurospares.co.uk/partTable.asp?M=1&Mo=662&A=1&B=38782&S=

    and confirm that your euro 308QV (SN 44297 LHD?) is the later design with the AAV mounted under the coolant tank.

    If so, you might try a couple of things. With tube 72 removed from fitting 13 and with the engine dead cold (like after sitting overnight so the AAV is open -- which I assume that you've already confirmed is actually partially open at room temperature):

    1. try blowing into the free end of tube 72 to make sure there isn't some blockage somewhere else (e.g., tube 69 looks like it must be a fairly long hose and make many bends to get back to fitting 73), and

    2. it wouldn't hurt to poke a long metal rod (like the long end of a small allen wrench) up fitting 13 just to make sure it's not blocked either.

    The other possibility is that the AAV is open, and trying to let extra air in, but the cold A/F ratio is too wacky and you are not actually running on all cylinders until the RPM drops. Didn't you have a cold stalling problem after initial light-off and a 2000 RPM warm idle? Did you tweak things to improve warm idle and/or confirm that the WUR was doing what it was supposed to do when cold?
     
  5. tomberlin

    tomberlin Formula Junior
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    Apr 9, 2005
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    I'm with Steve so far. If it throttle responds but does not idle it could be the AAV. If it doesn't throttle respond well you can check control pressure cold and as it warms up. The control pressure restricts movement of the air flow plate. Higher control pressure makes a leaner mixture. You can look at the aux. air valve opening from cold and see if the restriction changes as it warms up. The control pressure regulators are very sensitive to trash in the fuel and are a common area for problems.
    They can usually be cleaned and adjusted.
    Cheers,
    Tom B.
     
  6. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    Sep 30, 2003
    18,102
    Savannah
    thank you for the help.

    my car only has one AAV, on the RH side of the engine. it does not have one under the coolant tank. i put the new replacement one in the freezer for 15 minutes, and it opened. my garage is hovering around 100 degrees inside right now. i am wondering it its just too hot for the car to need to use its cold idle?

    the symtoms have bee so far as follows:

    1) car was delivered, and you had to crack the throttle to satrt it. it started fine and idle speed was 1000 rpm cold.

    no hot start issues.

    2) when warmed up, idle would increase to 200 rpm and stay there.

    i removed the intake hose and throughly cleaned all the gunk from the throttle plate and runners, as well as the small air passage bleed. i also carefully cleaned the the air plunger in the fuel dizzy, and installed a K&N air filter.


    car now starts fine cold, with no throttle input. cold idle is 1000 rpm, warm idle is still 2000 rpm. i unplugged the old AAv still mounted on the car, and the idle remains 1000 rpm cold.

    also noticed the throttle sticks some and will not fullu close sometimes on its own. suspect a weak throttle return spring. (which i think is on the pedal?)

    i will work on the car more today.


    car drives and cruises fine, has lots of power and pull from 3500 to redline.

    winter is coming and i want it to run properly. 1000 rpm cold is too low, it should be at 1500 until its warmed up a bit. right now it is exactly like having a carb car with no choke.
     
  7. tomberlin

    tomberlin Formula Junior
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    #7 tomberlin, Sep 17, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2008
    Plug the AAV hose to the manifold when warmed up and see what the idle is. The valve should close when the elec. element heats up - minute or two. it also gets warmed by engine heat. Get the idle figured out without the AAV. Maybe a warped throttle plate, poorly adjusted throttle stop, air leak, or as you said throttle spring trouble.Try disconnecting the throttle cable. If you can get warm idle straight, then put the aav back on line and see if it raises cold idle. Be mindful of failed injector seals. They can leak a lot of air. You may be dealing with an air leak that gets worse warm, or on air leak that really becomes evident when the need for rich fuel decreases when warm.I don't know if there's an idle bypass on these things. If there is it might be poorly adjusted. CIS is really a simple system to diagnose most of the time because fuel pressure tells you so much about what's happening to the mixture, and you can block out the aux. air system as it should have no effect on warm running.
    Cheers,
    Tom B.
     
  8. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
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    Have to say (again) that this is really unacceptable, and that you shouldn't even be worrying about (or trying to fix) other modes before the warm idle is setup correctly.
     
  9. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    Sep 30, 2003
    18,102
    Savannah
    i know, i am working on it. i wanted to do " one thing at a time " and replace the AAV. that i did, and it changed nothing, other than wasting $80.00.

    i have been learning alot!
     

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