Thermocouples, slow down lights, related CEL’s, and how to conquer them... | Page 3 | FerrariChat

Thermocouples, slow down lights, related CEL’s, and how to conquer them...

Discussion in '348/355' started by jevs, Aug 9, 2012.

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  1. gothspeed

    gothspeed F1 World Champ

    May 26, 2006
    10,244
    U.S.A.
    Full Name:
    goth
    +1 ......... ;)

    Great thread and info Jevs :)!! it is good to hear another confirming 5.2 reference point ...... that shows the bypass thermocouple can be left out of the exhaust stream and NOT get a P1448 CEL ....... :) ......... my previous tinkering with it in the past, showed that center bypass thermocouple 'logic' (when left in the exhaust stream) ..... senses and alerts for an 'overheat' condition and a bypass valve 'stuck open' condition only ............ ;)
     
  2. eyboro

    eyboro Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 30, 2004
    988
    Chicago
    Full Name:
    Eitan
    If I have a good bypass valve, thermocouple, and ECU, can I let the thermocouple out of the exhaust by the bypass hang and just cap the thread by the bypass? Will that stop my P1448 CEL?
     
  3. hacker-pschorr

    hacker-pschorr Formula Junior

    Sep 27, 2006
    584
    Land of Lambeau
    Wow, excellent thread!!!

    Very nice work.

    Now we just need the equivalent thread for bypassing the secondary O2's...... :D
     
  4. cavlino

    cavlino Formula 3
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    Mar 6, 2002
    1,740
    Ottawa, Canada
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    Carm Scaffidi
    Ah, do you mean you are getting a P1448 now and are wondering if it will go away if you do the above?
     
  5. jevs

    jevs Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2010
    477
    Missouri
    Bypass as in get rid of them completely, or stop the efficiency CEL's? 90º spacers on the rear o2's will stop the CEL's, but you need to have all good o2 sensors. They are pretty cheap.
     
  6. eyboro

    eyboro Formula Junior
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    May 30, 2004
    988
    Chicago
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    Eitan
    Yes
     
  7. gothspeed

    gothspeed F1 World Champ

    May 26, 2006
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    goth
    If your bypass ECU and thermocouple are in good working order, then yes! ....... :)
     
  8. eyboro

    eyboro Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 30, 2004
    988
    Chicago
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    Eitan
    #58 eyboro, Aug 15, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
    My car failed emission test for the first time in 15 years and the code pending was the dreaded P1448; I checked the ECU and the thermocouple by swopping with other ECU and code P1448 again. I did change the Bypass valve with the Capristo valve about 6 months ago and I'm guessing this is my problem. The Capristo valve opens at around 3000 RPM as opposed to the factory which opens at around 4000 RPM so I'm guessing the temperature is higher than aloud by the ECU as the valve is open more frequently and that's why I'm getting this CEL. I may be wrong but I will try and disconnect the thermocouple and cap the exhaust, and hopefully this will solve my problem. Thanks for input.
     
  9. hacker-pschorr

    hacker-pschorr Formula Junior

    Sep 27, 2006
    584
    Land of Lambeau
    Stop the CEL when the CATS are removed.

    I have four new ones ready to go in.
     
  10. jevs

    jevs Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2010
    477
    Missouri
    P0441 Not listed in my codes
    P1442 Secondary Air Injection System (Bank 2) - Malfunction (plause) not present
    P0448 Evaporative Emission Control System Vent - Shorted (Min) 1 check wiring 2 check the valve functionality

    So, nothing related to this thread. Hope this helps. Sounds like a wire got messed up or something when the exhaust was installed or something is not plugged in right or malfunctioning.
     
  11. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 29, 2001
    17,940
    USA
    Interesting for sure! I can confirm that if the bypass valve is constantly closed, a 5.2 Montronic will trip a P1448 code. I had a bad connector to the vacuum solenoid and my valve was always closed and I got that code.

    Jevs, this is an incredibly useful/educational thread, both on bypassing the catalyst ECU circuits as well as a fix for bad cat ecus. Thank you!
     
  12. gothspeed

    gothspeed F1 World Champ

    May 26, 2006
    10,244
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    goth
  13. fiat

    fiat Karting

    Aug 5, 2012
    80
    florida
    Full Name:
    graziano
    jevs do you sell, or willing to build the bypasses for the exaust ecu. My 360 has sport headers without air injection,fab seed cat bypass and capristo level 3 exaust. I would like to eliminate the sdl because it annoying.
     
  14. jevs

    jevs Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2010
    477
    Missouri
    I am not sure I could sell them for enough to be worth my time to be honest. If I had to charge for my actual time you would think I was gouging :) The parts are cheep, but the time....I am so busy that I hardly get any sleep as it is. I am still trying to finish my own car. I don't really have much to go, but when you only get a few hours per week, it takes forever plus I have 4 other projects, day job, kids etc. I really want to try my boat too, but of course that turned into a project getting it up to my standards. I might be on it for another 3 weeks still. The Ferrari was a way bigger job than I anticipated. I actually got rid of another custom built project car for the Ferrari thinking "I will go OEM and it will be a snap to just get it to perfection"----->wrong :) 6 months later & still working on it. Getting close though.
     
  15. eyboro

    eyboro Formula Junior
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    May 30, 2004
    988
    Chicago
    Full Name:
    Eitan
    Found out my ECU was faulty, ordered a new one form Ferrparts, installed it in 5 minuts, cleared my CEL code. After 100 miles of driving with no pending codes, went for emmission test today and my car passed. It took me a year to figure out.

    I did pass with the thermocouple hanging and the exhaust by the bypass capped.

    Thanks Goth
     
  16. fiat

    fiat Karting

    Aug 5, 2012
    80
    florida
    Full Name:
    graziano
    could you tell me were to buy the parts to build the ecu by pass. It seems simple enough to build with your detailed instructions and I am going to give it a try. I have followed your instructions on testing the ecu and thermocouples and they checked out ok. thank you.
     
  17. jevs

    jevs Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2010
    477
    Missouri
    I got the parts from Gateway Electronics in St louis except the connectors. I already had them in the kit from the supplier I listed above. I also already had the wiring. You can get them from any electronics place. Nothing special.
     
  18. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,430
    socal
    I'm not a electronics guy and I don't know what your circuit does. it looks like some kind of voltage divider. Do you guys know that if a generic bypass circuit fails and dumps high voltage into the ECU it will fry it? Then the mil will be on forever and you can't fix it without buying a new ECU. We know this because John actually made a mistake and full voltage went into the ECU and he fried it. That was a $2000 mistake! Just be careful. That is the reason that John in my other thread on this subject had commissioned what he speced out for his superb automatic SDECU system. FWIW my caveman approach to trick the ECU while manually monitoring EGT's is still working great. We are free of that Ferrari nightmare forever!
     
  19. jevs

    jevs Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2010
    477
    Missouri
    This is why I added some protection and also a voltage regulator, then a voltage divider to get down to the 1.5V. Much more stable than what others had suggested in other threads.

    D1 is for protection and if it shorts it will just blow your fuse that supplies 12 volts and no voltage would go out to the ECU (electricity seeks the easiest path, which would be through the shorted D1). This would draw big current and pop the fuse instantly.
    D2 keeps anything from feeding back into your 12v line from this circuit.
    C1 and C2 are just for stability of the 5 Volt regulator (IC1), they keep it from oscillating etc.
    Capacitors normally fail open, so not much risk there. Even if they shorted, then you would just get 0 volts to the ECU (again electricity would take the easiest path which is not to the ECU). In fact, if C1 or C2 shorted, then this would happen: D2 would blow due to over current, then the fuse would blow unless D2 went open, then the circuit would just be dead.
    5 volt regulators also fail open normally and would stop regulating versus sending out 12v.
    Even if the 5 volt regulator were to short and put out 12V (minus the .6 or .7 volts that D2 drops), it would still have to go through R1 (potentiometer). If that happened, your ECU would still see less than 5 volts (theoretically around 3.6 Volts) with a full 12 volts on it due to the voltage dividing R1. The ECU would just think it's seeing a hot thermocouple.

    This is about as low risk of a circuit as I could come up with. Similar circuits are very common in tons of 12V devices. I can't think of any time I ever saw a 5 volt regulator fail that hurt the components being supplied off of it. If they fail, they usually just stop outputing any useful voltage, or something it was supplying failed and cause a high current draw on the regulator making it fail.

    So, this circuit is pretty safe. Of course, build it at your own risk, this is just a guide showing what I did and is for information purposes only. I take no responsibility in what you do with this information. You could potentially hurt your car if you do it wrong and actually put it in your car without testing/tuning it on the bench. The above info applies only if you build it right. If you do build this, I highly recomend testing it on the bench and adjusting it on the bench. I highly recommend not powering it off the car etc. when your testing/tuning it, just in case you make a mistake. Don't connect things to your car that you don't know what they are doing or you are not 100% sure you have the wires correct etc.

    On another note, this is all still working perfectly in my car :) Code free and slow down free...

    Also, did anyone open that bad ECU and look into fixing it? Depending on what device is at the input signal line, it could be a couple dollar repair......It should be easy to diagnose since you know exactly what happened and what pin the over voltage was sent to. Unless that signal goes straight to a micro, it should be something pretty simple.
    When the check engine light is stuck on, is it just giving the code that you would expect if you had a bad thermocouple? If so, that tells you the problem is just in that portion of the cicruit and probobly did not take anything else out. Does the car still otherwise function correctly?

    Most likely other input lines are using the same circuit, so even if the part blew apart, you should be able to tell what it was and get a replacement. It would be worth looking into if you could make a useless ECU into a $2000 part for a couple dollars :)
     
  20. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,430
    socal
    Excellent! I'm glad you thought this through, crossed all T's, dotted all I's
     
  21. tech4ferrari

    tech4ferrari Karting
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Jan 22, 2010
    234
    Mt Airy N,C
    Full Name:
    casey johnson
    #71 tech4ferrari, Aug 31, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I will hand it to you ...you made it work...I made one myself and no slow down light any more! I can now remove my little black piece of tape :)
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  22. fiat

    fiat Karting

    Aug 5, 2012
    80
    florida
    Full Name:
    graziano
    jevs I am in the process to built two of them. The only concern I have will they work in my 03 Ferrari 360 spider. I looked at the thermocouples and the vescovini ecu, they looked just like the ones on the 355 with the green epoxy. I need only two because the 360 does not have one for the exhaust bypass valves. As i mentioned before I have headers with no air injection, Fabspeed cat bypass and the capristo level 3 sistem. The sound is awesome.
     
  23. jevs

    jevs Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2010
    477
    Missouri
    I am not sure why I am not getting an e-mail when people respond to this thread, but I am glad to hear from PM's that people have duplicated these and it solved their problems (on 360 as well). I thought I would report back also that my car is still running great with no slow down or check engine lights.
     
  24. fiat

    fiat Karting

    Aug 5, 2012
    80
    florida
    Full Name:
    graziano
    I did build two of your electronic wander boxes to conquer the sdl on my 360. They are working perfectly. No more sdl. This is the best thing to do in order to eliminate the sdl,and the plus of it is the price to build them, about 40$. Nothing else will work. Again jews is the guru of the sdl. as I said before you are the man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  25. jevs

    jevs Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2010
    477
    Missouri
    Thanks!
    Keep in mind if anyone is using this on a car that still has cats and stuff in it, make sure you dont really have a heat problem :) You wouldnt want to bypass a real problem.
     

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