Thinking of Shelby Daytona Coupe continuation car

Recently available. Not a bad price for a Gelscoe. Would it stay together running Hoosier slicks? Sell the SPF, buy this and give it a go

https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/82231/2016-gelscoe-ford-gt40

 

The SPF after 500 miles of pain is gone. While i know you like to change subject as conveniant and try point to a fault of the owner or use, going from a false bearing narrative/defence now to tires.

The bulk of its failures of which there were many are not tire related or even attributable tires, things like crossmembers, shift linkages, various other sub par componants, thats before we even get into the machining of parts... If I wanted to I could write a treatise on the differences between a SPF and a period car, and the effects. I get that SPF marketing is all about hat its a real GT40 you and drive on street, so the idea that its not really that is an issue thye prefer not raised.

I see how you always wish to change the subject when one avenue does not work. So to adress your previous point on an overall subject that was best left dropped. A 50 yo design was raced for 24 hours, it was run for decades afterwards by privateers using all sorts of tires and powerplants, and you can go see "real" Gt40s at any number of historic events LRP for example runing hoosier bias plies. The place where they dont run hoosier bias plies is goodwood because for historic accuracy there they have to run grooved bias ply race slicks.

BTW who are you? How about filling out a profile?
You claim "not to be an expert" in some posts but then seem to have all this "definative" knowledge when it suits. You refused whether you have a relationship with SPF or the componant car industry.

Or are you just a layperson expressing an opinion of what you read?

In any event I think SPF are great street dream cars.

 

Good price on the used Gelescoe, only 50-100% more than a new SPF. Do you think the difference in price is due to labor costs, the greater historical accuracy of a gelescoe or some other factors as well.

This car in the ADD has I belive the pre 66 or tub so it can race in particular class. In fact Goodwood spec cars cant even run a full cage as those in the USA do because in theory it makes them stiffer than in period. A SPF Mk1 Tub is apparently their stronger" MK2 tub so would in theory if the marketing is to be believed be stronger than the gelescoe tub...

The Gelscoe car in the add if the add is to be believed has needed after one season of racing(with one DNF due to throttle linkage) new wheel bearings brake caliper rebuild pads and fluids. I assume a season is something like 2k miles maybe more. In any event there is one DNF. That is hugely different to my SPF experince where a wheel almost came off not from bearign failure but due tot he pot metal used on the bearing lockign tab, and you dont even want to see the lame screws used on the lockign tab itself. SPF cars need alot of bearing adjustments, somethign i have not touched upon due to the variablity in the upright/hub casting. There were multiple brake and caliper failures, some due to insufficient quality(for track) master cylinders for both brake and clutch as well as clutch slave, others due to the calipers speced.i s. I could go on and on.

I get that people love the idea of the dream, a GT40 thats affordable because its made in Sa where labor is "inexpensive". I bought that dream. Its inexpensive because of quality of materials and quality of execution, they are in it to make money at that price. Imagine more a Gt40 built in China.

Even looking at the Gelescoe engine bay pictures in the add I can see numerous relevant detail differences, and I know also whats under the skin..

As I said SPF makes awesome dream cars for the street, and I am pretty sure that SPF drives the same as an original because it more or less copies the patterns, its just not the same in terms of durability when you get to a track enviroment.

If you have been to the track, you know its a really hard enviroment on machine, which requires a very different standard to work. "real" GT40s did work there and were supremly durable in the 60s and worked brilliantly for decades afterwards, usualy what brought them in restoration after 30-40years on track was corrosion in the recesses between the ribs of the tub.,.

 

beauty!!!

 

Yep a stunner.
I can say that out on track, running well a Gt40 is one fantastic driving experince, thats the part I miss..

 

I reckon we could go in circles for days and nothing new would be said.

You stated there are no SPF GT40s racing when in fact there were at least 4 at Goodwood and several in the US that are tracked regularly, 2 that are race winners at the highest of levels. All of them requiring regular maintenance and component repairs.

At Goodwood where the 4 SPF cars ran, it was an original that while battling for the lead, suffered a rear wheel bearing failure. Go figure.

I understand your position. You bought and raced a GT40. It broke and required regular maintenance. Sounds about right. Sorry you failed to connect those dots until after the fact and were disappointed. I mean that sincerely. Here's to hoping your new Lotus provides thousands of trouble free racing miles on occasional oil changes and 2 sets of tires. Good luck to you sir.

 

Regular maintanance? Joke. "compnonant repairs" broad open subject. Youre Changing tack again.
For someone who a couple of posts ago claimed not to be an "expert" wow you sure have a lot of detailed information.
I can connect dots very well.
Who are you?
Profile?

 

I'm not all that familiar with the GT40 recreations and the SPF cars get mentioned here more than the others. In the Gelscoe ad, it states the car is indistinguishable from the originals. Is that true? What other companies create exact recreations?

 

And yes, the Gelescoe car is actually a good deal compared to a new one. (I think they are 600-700k if you have them build you a copy) If I remember correctly…….

 

The other I know of is Hollman Moody, that is the Mk2 version, ie the 427 powered car, wit different rear styling and imo not quite as beutiful, to the extent thats relevant..

There was also a company that made a limited run of Mk4, they called themselvs car craft after the original manufacturer and the cars were indistingushable and could race in europe, but others quetion whether the new car craft are the type holder.

You can also buy a new Lola T70 from lola. And Chevron will build you a B16.
A year ago when evo magazine did the track car of the year test the lola T70 was handily faster than everything else tested.

 

One of the SPF cars at Goodwood

https://petrolicious.com/articles/here-s-what-it-s-like-to-race-a-ford-gt40-on-the-limit

 

Once gain, who are you, profile, troll.

Can Alan Mann be running an SPF tub. Or lets put it another way. Could SPF take due care and build up a tub to spec. yes. Can this tub then be fitted out by Alan Mann racing with different suspension, different uprights, different hubs, different brakes, numerous detail differences, different componants, different pedal box. Yes. Even a quick glance at the photos indicates all these differences.

Is the Alan mann car the same car as one SPF sells you, now, well the tub has the same patterns. So yes I am sure you can take a bare SPF tub, that the factory built specialy with due care, spend another 200k, and maybe youll get there. By which time you could have bought a properly built car from someone else.

Now of course SPF will say that the differences are SPF cars have aluminum not magnesium up rights. I have heard their rap.

But the differences are far greater.
Yes there was SPF car running in Japan, there are two that run HSR in USA, they too have numerous detail differences and require mega to keep going.

As we know, any race car requires maintanance. We know that the purchase cost is just the beginning. However sometimes you get what you pay for, and the cost of running a spf ontrack far exceeds any savings in purchase cost. In addition, its not just the cost, which in my experience was 5k per day in fixing or reingeerign crap componants(not consumables), but also the fact that if you cant run a full day youre just wasting your time and effort.

So sure you can run a spf on track. It will take at least 50K if not more in re-engnering to start and get it sort of there. Youll always be chasing cracks and fixing things that simply shouldnt be going wrong and are unlikely to finish a day.. Then well youll send the uprights out to have bearing spacers made, each one being different so inconsistent are the castings, youll have replaces all the master cylinders, youll be thinking about the whole pedal box, youll definatly want to change the braking system. youll be welding up bits to keep the engine and transmssion in place because SPF cars are missing the bell housing tie in to the subframe. Youll also start to notice that this is the tip of the iceberg as you look at the shifter mechanism etc.

All while someone like Truth Teller at spf spins you yarns about how people race these cars.

Eventualy if you want to keep going youll decide to re-engineer the whole car, by which time it will be pretty obvious that it would have saved time $ and effort to go with a GT40 built for the task, and if your enginering is sucessful you'll still be fighting some inherrant flaws of the spft build.

You know the saying, That dog dont hunt.


What spf shoudl do is listen to customers, not spin yarns. If someone is buyign car to go on track spf might do well to sell a version enginered for such and having componants designed to work in that enviroment. The factory itself has no running GT40 so has little to no clue beyond they just built and shipped it. The importer sells dreams for the street, built to a price.

I said it before and will say it again, in my experience spf GT40s drive like a Gt40 and look like one, they are enginered and built with componants to a street cruiser spec, and that is the TRUTH.

Truth Teller
Tell us the truth, who are you, your relationship with spf.
I know they/you have great marketing so trolling car websites makes sense.

 

None of the SPF GT40s that were at Goodwood lost any wheel bearings or suspension components while racing that I can see. Somehow their experience was different than yours. Could it be they were running period correct tires and quite a bit less HP than you were and were not over stressing the chassis? Anyway, no affiliation with SPF here. Good luck to you sir.

Here is the full race for you to review. Look for the #1, #7, #11, and #25 cars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuUJZDS5C7k&t=781s

 

As I pointed out, in my post above, maybe spf built he tub, but otehr than that they also dont run the same suspension or brake componants at all, thats clear even in the photos posted. You know this, otherewise for one thing they couldnt have FIA papers.

BTW were you not the one claiming earlier in this thread with a video that a GT40 at goodwoood had bearing failure? pointing to a fire in the left rear wheel? I seem to remember you posting this, and then I pointed out it was not bearing failure. Now you claim there was no bearing failure.

SPF has built more than 300 Gt40s. Accordign to you there 6 on track between the USA and Europe. BTW the 2 in USA run the same tires as mine. They also have more Hp, as do the ones in europe. But thats besides the point.

Gelescoe has built far fewer cars, I think 15, for lots more money and they are all on track. If SPF cars were comparable and half the price why are people buying and runing e gelescoe, or Hollamn for double the price. Out of the 300 + built, why dont we see more spf cars on track, in theory its a race car replicated. The reason is the spf cars are not really up to it.

But then according to your own words in this thread you "are no expert" so lets leave it at that. Or tell us who you are, what your experience is and we can have an informed debate.

good luck to you.

 

You're right. To be eligible the SPF cars must downgrade their 4 piston Wilwood calipers and vented rotors to 2 piston calipers and non-vented rotors. They end up glowing red from the heat yet still it was an original GT40 that lost a rear wheel bearing during the race go figure? The SPF cars come with a modern Bilstein shock which also must be downgraded to the original Koni units. The do run the stock SPF a-arms. All of this info is just a couple Google clicks away for anyone to discover.

Gelscoe cars are wonderful. They are tool room copies from original plans that I'm sure provide a level of attention to detail the SPF cars do not. For that precision you pay a premium that is 3 times that of an SPF car. That in no way makes SPF cars the low quality dime store copies you allege they are. Do you think Shelby America would utilize an SPF Cobra chassis if they were such low quality?

 

I'm sorry but you're mistaken. There was a bearing failure on P1041. I invite you to examine the wheel camber at the 43:46 mark. That smoke is not from the brakes but rather the hub assembly. The car was retired from the race.

 

And here I was thinking you were a just layperson as you pretended to be, rather than someone with a vested interest.

As you know the cars at goodwood dont have the same uprights as the spf cars in usa which are aluminum and metric, that means everything from bearings to hubs are differently machined and setup. The difference in casting quality and material used means there is also a difference in strength. As you no doubt know that means they are very different in terms of quality of componants, more on this as regards spf uprights in next post... A cursory glance at the alan mann car also indicates a different roll bar setup, and different half shafts too, there is probably significant differences, spf itself told me it takes 100k in upgrades to that spec and that was years ago..

As to the brakes, Maybe the willwoods are more "powerful" as I said previously. The problem with them is that they are not up to track use. Willwood makes various calipers and the ones provided are low spec, what willwood politely had to say was that there are other brakes they make more suited to track use, but that these are the ones speced by spf... Nor for that matter are willwood master cylinders up to track use. These componants are street rod cruiser stuff.

I am not alleging about SPF, I am meerly repeating the highlights of my experience.

Nor can I coment on the cobras and have said so. Someone else here an owner of a cobra gave his comments a few posts ago on that score.

Shelby american is a licensing company moving metal/plastic. I dont know what they would or would not use, they are clearly tied up and close with spf and I think they also had some special shelby Mk2 GT40s they did together. There is also a vast difference between a chassis and the componants attached to that chassis, i have no idea what componats sheby attches to their cobra chassis, but I guess you do...

Yes you pay more for gelescoe, partialy because of attention to detail, but that is only part of the picture as I pointed out previously, there is also lot of detail and attention in building somethign properly as well as componants and sub componants used, and that where the spf falls short. To give but one example of real Gt40s. Are they all missing the tie of the bellhousing to the chassis? or is that just spf.
The anology I gave you was to two ford V8s, both produce the same power but are built with vastly different internals, the dyno numbers are the same, one will last the other wont.

You do seem unusualy sensitive, and suddenly very knowledgable for someone who claimed to be "no expert" do you work for shelby american perhaps, or the componant car industry?

 

I see so now we are moving on again from me using the wrong tires(hoosier bias plys) and had too much power back to all Gt40s have a bearing failure. Youll also note I never said the bearing failed in my car, ratehr it was the locking tab made out of piss poor metal, and a poorly seated bearing due to inconsistent and poor casting/machining of the spf of the uprights that caused bearing near heel loss issue. These are very different uprights to what is run at goodwood.

Of real Gt40s. Do they all have a failing ball joint after 300 miles, which looked put together like crap?
Are they all missing the tie of the bellhousing to the chassis? Do they all come with master cylinders that cant cope and fail within 1-200 miles on track. Are they all incapable of runnign 50-70 miles on track without some under speced componant failing.

ALL gT40S need bearing adjustemnts, just as trailers do, its the nature of the design. However its the poor inconsistent machining of the the spf upright which caused the entire bearing assembly to rotate, and its the poor as pis potmetal on the bearing lockign tab which then failed causing the wheel to start coming loose. Note I never said bearing failure. Not sure if you understand mechanicaly what I am saying. But this is a flaw in the way spf cars are built above and beyond whatevr bearing weakness GT40s may have.

I get youre more than casualy involved, why not come out the shadows and tell us about yourself.

For myself I am not alleging, I am reporting my actual experience. Unlike you, I dont hide behind a non profile, I didnt come out of nowhere to suddenly post on one issue. I also happened to put my money where my mouth was, bought the car, had the premier spf builder who runs race cars build it up without financial restraint, I then spent years trying to make it work, without budget restraints. SPF said I must have gotten a lemon, and others who had track experience before me said they all do that.

No doubt you will try have the last word and shoot down what I am saying again. Everyone can draw their own conclusions.

 

Did you wrench your own car? Tilton make bolt in replacements I think about $75 ea from Summit. There is a premier builder that offers a shift cable bracket that improves shift precicion and feel. It's pretty cheap I believe. You can get replacement ball joint rubber covers and the complete ball joint at Napa. $35 ea. The uprights are just fine and yes even the originals needed regular maintenance and new Nilos dust seals that are readily available. If you didn't do your own wrenching I can see how the upkeep on a vintage race car could have been an expensive and frustrating exercise. I believe there are a lot of owners on the gr40 site that could have helped you along. Did you ever seek advice there?

 

Had a professional race shop which took care of various vintage racers, f5000 etc wrenching, eventualy they said while the car would make them rich, it was not worth doing because there was no end in sight. Not very often someone gives up an income stream.

We did a lot of reiginerring, had help from people running "real Gt40s" so I know the endemic faults to spf.

Yes I ended up with tilton master cylinders and tilton resevoires.
My car was not cable shift, it was the RHD sill shift, which BTW like a lot on the spf car has numerous shortcuts compared to the orig design.

We also ran JRZ shocks. The stock rotors were just fine, we certainly never got near their capacity.

I was in regular contact with owners on the Gt40 site, they run street cars, so their problems were more drawn out over time. Street is avery different enviroment.
The few who ran on track had a similar experince to me, chose to keep quiet so they could sell on.


BTW had regular contact with the builder, spf and the factory. Its not as though we were blind or budget limited, or inexcperienced, its as though the project was not worth persuing.

SPFs own words were they were embarased to show me the factories response to questions. But then from what SPF told me the factory turns out cars, the cheif engineer has never driven one, and the one car they competed was shipped to the states, so they have little idea of faults development etc. SPF itself as you know the principle has a Gt40 with the 427, his answer was his car did 11k miles, but they were all street, very dfferent.

As is aid SPF is fine for the street, they are not enginered or built to a track standard, that has to do with quality of build and componants used. yes there are some great bits, and also many not great.

Could you take an spf tub, that the factory built specialy with care, and build it out with different and quality componats to work on track, yes. But by then you could have gotten somehthing from somoene else built properly for that enviroment in the first place, and it would not still have several drawbacks, which is why you will see so few spf cars ontrack.

Whats sad is the reaction of the manufacturer, because they are so marketing as opposed to product driven. I wont even go into what they offered in terms of resale or went about it..

Since you seem to have a genuine interest, and some sort of involvement, I am happy to share with you my experiences which may help. I suggest you Pm me and we can do so in private.

Personaly I have moved on, so have little desire to keep banginbg back and forth on an open forum.

Suffice it to say, the car was built up by the right person, it was wrenched by a proper and experinced race shop, we brought in experienced Gt40 people to consult, including historic racers, we did a lot of fixing and reigineering. Every time went out the next link in the chain broke. After 2 years the shop owner took me aside and went over the car in detail, he said it would make him rich, and we would never see the end.

Its a great awesome car, just not built to a track standard.

 

Sure, we can leave it here. What you describe above sounds like any race car. They require a lot of work and financial investment to keep up with. I would assume 50 year old race cars require even more. If you had purchased an original car from the 1960's, I don't think your experience would have been any different other than your initial in investment would have been several million instead of several thousand. Race cars break. Vintage race cars break more.

 

Yes they do break more and require more. They are usualy also capable of completing a day on track especialy if newly rebuilt.

Finance here was not the issue, nor a race shop.

 

Wow, boxerman, you blew up my dreams.
The SPF is the only version I could aspire to.
As to Shelby's endorsement cited by truth teller; he was charging folks to autograph sun visors or glove box doors and slapping his name on anything that might sell so please...

 

It's Ross. I have had my SPF Cobra for 4 summers. This will be my 5th. I have not spent 1 dollar on any repairs. The car has been perfect and never let me down. BUT I have never tracked it nor would I unless it was a small slower speed auto cross type of track. If you are wanting a fun Sunday driver that looks amazing and runs like a champ then you will love the SPF. If you are wanting a track car then I would guess you will be spending a lot of money to upgrade or just get one that is already track ready. I will be the first to tell you I dont much about them other than what I have experienced. I have a buddy with an SPF that he has done some tracking with and he has spent quite a bit on upgrading.