This is another reason why non-racing Ferraris should have manual gearboxes.

We're already to that point. During Car and Driver's Lighting Lap, when a car (with an automatic) they are testing has a good enough track mode, they don't bother with the paddles because the shift times are mapped better in D.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/cadillac-ats-v-coupe-at-lightning-lap-2015-feature

 

So there we have it. Like it or not anyone with f1 shouldnt even have paddles. It should be fully auto since the main argument for f1 is lap times.

 

We'll lap times are the main priority, but they try to keep the balance between the driver vs. the car doing the driving. It's hard to say where the best 'middle' ground is. Everybody's has an opinion.

if absolute speed/lap times is your goal, of course as much computer assisted stuff that furthers that goal is a no-brainer...but fans, drivers, stakeholders all have a different opinion on how much is "too much" or "too little"

so this will be an endless debate...

back to the OPs premise though that if you drive anything less then stick that you're somehow less 'real/proficient/better/skilled' in driving I still say is a stretch.

There are just too many variables, conditions, contexts, to make such a bold blanket statement. Each person should drive whatever setup that they love, don't worry about what setup/mode some other person is driving unless you're in some racing league. (full stop)

 

I do find the whole "paddles are faster" argument tiresome. How much faster? Under what circumstances? On public roads, what's the difference? How many Ferraris are drag raced? Even on an average road circuit track layout, we're talking differences in rounding errors. You only gain on upshifts which you may do only 3-5 times a lap. The only time I had my 430 on a track with other paddle equipped cars was at Road America some years ago. I had no trouble keeping up with and passing the paddle cars and I'm no pro. Which brings me to the next point: When I bought my 430 new, paddle cars were an extra 12K. For 12K, you can buy lots of go faster goodies for tracks like stickier tires, suspension setups, brakes, etc. But the best option would have been to spend 12K on good track driving instruction. My observation of drivers, including Ferrari drivers, is that most could benefit greatly from training.

Dave

 

If you look at the 0-60 times of various supercars, paddle-shifted cars are usually quicker by about 0.3 to 0.4 seconds through the run than manual ones.

But it all comes back to what I said earlier. If you race competitively and need to find every extra tenth of a second on each lap, paddles are the way to go. But so far, nobody on here has come out and said they race their paddle-shifted car competitively, and since competitive racing is really the only scenario where paddles will make a difference, I don't see what makes these transmissions so enamoring.

 

I race a paddle shift car. I also race in a variety of manual gearbox cars, from Miatas to Porsches.

The "advantage" of the paddle box is 1) reliability - as in, small chance of mis-shift 2) smoothness -the chassis is less unsettled (i.e. reduces pitch) and 3) speed, but primarily on downshifts.

To me, the biggest time gain is on downshifting, while braking, simply because you can maximize attention on optimal braking and turn-in. Most race cars with paddle shifters are simply actuated sequential gearboxes, so the time gain may be very little per shift, but multiply over multiple corners and multiple laps, and reduce errors, it adds up.

These gearboxes ARE faster than the best professional drivers....and pro drivers are way, way, way better than the average street driver in terms of footwork, particularly on downshifts and braking. And, interestingly, most pro-level drivers prefer the paddle gearboxes. It's rare when I get to ride in a manual gearbox street car with people who can navigate a gearbox these days.

At this point, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make....manual cars are fun, so are "paddle actuated" (F1, DCT or Sequential). One not better than another, though depends on what you're trying to get out of it. Perhaps we should debate power steering next?

As I've posted earlier in this thread, I have a 500 Abarth and a 355GTB 6 speed; the latter I bought specifically to have the chance to enjoy the gated shift experience. It's fun, it's challenging to be perfect. All good. But I also find the Speciale to be really fun as well. Quite candidly, the gearbox that annoys me is the one in our Cayenne.

 

Couldn't agree more with Entropy...

Drive what you love/like - trying to say transmission x is better then transmission y is like asking who is the most beautiful girl/car? Everybody has their own situation, opinion, circumstances...

From weekend racers to pedestrian drivers, from drag racers to auto crossers.

if one feels stick is the only 'real' way to drive (my preferred method - but in stop & go traffic - hell no) - you can buy one and enjoy to your heart's content! the guy driving the 'paddle' shifter on the opposite lane ain't stopping you! I love convertibles, but they usually zap performance and some people don't like them - are these other people wrong/right?

They aren't either - the answer is it's none of my business...I just focus on what I like to drive, and let other people worry about what they like to drive.

 

MBZ Classic Center?

Jack

 

Part of the problem is that the quality of today's supercar driver has dropped significantly. In older cars, you actually had to know what your doing. Almost like flying, which is regulated and you must spend quite a bit of time learning and passing tests.

Your grandmother could probably get in a LaFerrari and drive it almost as well as you, which nobody wants to accept. Technology means any moron can drive a super car pretty safely; even if they aren't really qualified to handle high-performance vehicles. It's easy and means more sales for Ferrari with low liability.

The old Ferraris required your full attention. Today's cars are driven by people talking on cell phones and paying little attention to actual driving.

And there is the rub. You don't really drive the car - you just think you do. Which means you don't really learn from mistakes and improve your skills, which removes the thrill of conquering a challenging powerful exotic car.

We can argue all day about Manual vs F1 vs DCT vs Auto. However, I doubt anyone would argue that manual requires a higher degree of skill than the other transmissions. And, if anything else, requires more of your attention towards driving - and that is good thing.

 

I think Ferrari should go back and make manuals again.

Then 40 people year will order them and these threads will dry up.

Guys: There's PLENTY of good 360's out there with 6 speeds at very reasonable prices. Its fast enough for ya because you don't seem to care about speed. Just buy them already.

Do you really care that a car that costs $300 grand doesn't come with a manual when you can get a nice Ferrari with a manual well under $100 grand? If its not about speed, what is it about?

 

The pleasure of buying a new car. Of oyur putting all the miles on it and taking care of it as you please. As opposed to say a 355 thrashed by previous owners and needing years of sorting to get right.

Truth be told, many of us buy cars other than ferrari because we prefer to DRIVE as opposed to sugesting tot he computer and having it decide what is Ok.

As to speed the R&T test had a manual viper acr at the top, the vette z06 seems quicker than most paddle cars and the Gt350 won not because it was the fastest but it was the most fun viceral.

Perhaps its not he op's question, but ferraris these days are not really fun untill 9/10th or more, speeds realisticaly unatainable on the road. Well they are fun to pose I suppose even standing still so there is that.

What I woudl like is ferrari to make fun to drive cars, as in fun to drive on the road. I will even take Bullfighters suggestion that the fun to drive is not defined by the transmission, although in my opinion it adds or detracts.

Mclaren gets it with the 570s even with paddles, as does porche aparently with the cayman Gt4.

Personaly I think ferrari is making ever more pointless cars, other than if the point is to pose. The reason why chev can sell a 100k vette porche 200+k 911s and audi r8s is because ferrari has abandoned the performance driving enthusiast and others have taken the gap wth derivations of more pedestrian cars for high prices..

That any twit can drive a ferrari means too many twits do, polaying walter mtitty pose race drivers, just liek many harley riders have some fake badass fantasy. The porblem is it makes the "image" of the product suck and eventualy the product itself evolves to refect its client base and image.

 

I think Every ferrari would sell out despite being manual only difference is kardashians and the like would not be the consumers.

 

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that car manufacturers are turning away from manual transmissions because people simply weren't buying them when they were available.

Make a valid business case for them and I'm sure they'll reappear.

It's all about selling what people are actually buying.

 

Not true, porche for one is seeing cayman demand double simply by offering a single hi perf gt4 manual only.

The trick is which models are being ofered with a manual, and is it properly devloped.

Now many manufactuers have not bothered with a manual because between emissions and fuel economy regs its easier to devlop paddles which comply, and yes paddles sell more than manual in most models so the logic is to go there.

Yet manual in some high perf cars seem to be 25% -50% of sales.

The issue then is if you are say ferrari are you loosing any sales by not ofering a properly developed manual, and do you even care. Previously ferrari was oversubscribed so didnt care. Now they have had to reduce sales below 7k units to "maintan exclusivity" all while they want to increase sales to 10k units.

Ferrari may well find that by selling properly developed manual derivatives of cars they can increase sales of existing platforms and serve enthusiasts thereby increasing brand cred.

Porche is ahead of the game on this. Not only still ofering NA motors on select "performance" models but increasingly manuals as well. Part of the deal though is a manual has to be properly developed. Its no secret why porche says the new 911R and Gt3 manual will be 6 speeds, because the current 7 speed on the reg 911 sucks, just like the manual on the 599 sucks.

The transmission has to "feel" right and the motor charatersitics have to be in harmnony with the transmission. In the modern era of completly integrated drivetrains its not as simple as replacing a paddle transmision with a manual one, so is 25% more sales worth the effort, for some yes others no.

If you think no ferrari people want manuals, then why do stick 360s and 430s sell at such premiums.

BMW and porche see valid buisness cases, ferrari is just arogant and lazy, but then having an endless supply of flipper customers will do that you you.

 

Ferrari does not, will not, build a new manual car that you will ever want or buy new. Too bad, move on. Ferrari will build whatever it wants. Ferrari has always been about catering to well heeled clients for the purpose of making money. Why are you so hung up on insulting owners of new Ferraris insinuating they are ruining the brand. Are they hurting the hardcore street racer persona your trying to craft for yourself? Either that, or you got schooled by a new paddle shift car really, really badly. You are too hung up on the brand names and image. Please stop worrying about Ferraris image so much and what kind of people are buying new cars. Now apparently new Harley riders are moving in on your "territory" too.

 

Dont worry yourself, I am a long term ferrari owner and a newer Harley amongs other cars and bikes, so perhaps I have some qualifications to coment. I have also spent the price of a new ferrari on something completly different to get what I value. I am not the only one, it was not this way in the past, which is a loss for ferrari imo.

This is a thread about the "majority" of new Fcar owners and who they are and why they buy, and whether the product is being debased by serving them. Its the perspective of an enthusiast group and long term owners. You may totaly disagree with the premise, many of us do not, even paddle owners.

Ferrari is in buisness to make money. It is also now a "brand" and brands have certain attributes that create an image, and the image is largely responsible for drivign sales with he "majority" of owners. Brands also need sustinance from substance, thats a buisness fact.

Now some "minority" buyers buy products on substance over brand, and what thye buy is followed by others which builds a brand. Thats how BMW built its brand starting with the 2002, and how the ferrari road car mystique was born way back in the 50s, its why Alfa is reestablishing with the 4c. All I am saying is whether paddle shift of not, ferrari should "also" build cars for a segement of its client base who buy primarily on substance, ie driving substance. Manuels may or may not be a critical part of that substance. Bullfigher and other plausibly argue its not a critical componant, many others including me feel that for a weekend drive engagement is critical and removing a big part of that is a big issue. Note there are many other componants, some of which ferrari still adheres to, for example response and sound.

BTW this has nothing to do with "hardcore" street racer. More like recreational early sunday road driver, something very different. Streetracer to me implies idiotic flooring of a vette from a light, weaving through traffic etc. Recreational driving on a sunday is playing the car like a fine instrument in harmony with an empty road, or pushing it on track, lap after lap.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, some of those opinions are more experienced with f-cars and similar than others, others are just impressionistic. I dont think any owners posting "here" are intentionaly being insulted, but if you identify with Paris Hilton and the paddle 360 spider the Beibs a Cinese Billionare hedge fund manager then yes you might be, and yes I am gneralising

IMO Ferrari wants to make money, have a sustainbable brand and grow while selling sportscars only. Independant of whether the future product is paddle or not, they will start to make cars hard core "driving" enthisiasts want to buy again, the kind of car you would sacrifice hock etc to own, the kind of car to keep for life. Thats why at age 28 I spent all I had to buy a grigio ferrari. Almost by defintion these cars will have minimal appeal amongst the poseur crowd and thats just fine. Ferrari can and should serve both markets, the poseur sales create volume and the volume is necessary to develop products the rest of us like.

Its the volume of 911 and suv sales that allow for the Gt4/Gt3 etc.

Nor does a car being modern mean itshas to be too isolated etc to have the attributes some of us seek. Porche proved that with the 997 gt3 and more latterly with the GT4, throughly modern cars which were not isolated or bloated, were fun to drive at all speeds and more than capable on track.Perhaps the 570s ticks this box too.



Ferrari wants 35% more sales, its not coming from china or europe witht he same product. Look at their product range. Now hear what they say about common platforms going forwards. It all tells me they are going after more niche of existing platfroms, and core enthusiasts imo will be one of them, its an abandoned and untapped market for ferrari. Maybe they will just make a plethroa of more expensive niche like the GtOs, But my bet is we will see simpler more hard core too, perhaps thats the dino brand, or part of it. Other Hi po rmanufactuers get 25% of sles from stick, challengers are over 50%. How many extra sales do they get by offering a stick. Ferrari had all the sales they wanted paddle only, now they are going to need more viceral alive machines, stick may or may not be an integral part of it, as Bullfighter says its certainly not the only part, and an undevloped stick wont sell.

,
I am not hung up on the "brand" But I am hung up on what the product used to be (the good parts) and the abandoning of that DNA in modern products to almost exclusively serve ease of use poseur volume. Ferrari were and to some diminshing extent still are something truly special for the driver gearhead. Its not about modern cars being by definition bland, its about what the manufactuerer chooses to emphasise and whether certain clien t bases are worth serving, both in terms of sales and in terms of "brand" perception amongst others.. Moderns can be great when manufactuers try, just look at the GT350R.

 

Ferrari's image that you desire is gone with the dustbining of the manual. They want to keep their product at the forefront of technology. The people that are buying these new performance cars are not looking for a retro tech yesteryear experience. Leave that to the old cars or build some car from a kit in your shed. Ferrari is a tech company more than most automakers. They have taken development of the internal combustion engine to an amazing level. Their aero is also at a level not a lot of others get to. They will now take turbo tech to the next level. Ferrari along with its involvement in F1 thrive off innovation in engineering. You just got left behind with the old tech. Oh and don't worry about sales, the Chinese are still buying. They keep their cars at their second, third and forth homes outside of China. Ferrari Maserati of Vancouver is probably the highest volume dealer in the world right now. Vancouver starting to rival Dubai for exotics.

 

Vancouver is in a huge bubble. Calgary was in one a few years ago and we know how that looks now (in a cold, cold climate, fascinating to have so many exotics being sold there but it did happen).

Don't look at some very recent flash in pan trends as indicative of anything.

As for technology, you realize that the technology could entirely kill the brand, right? Self driving cars would negate any advantage of Ferrari if taken to the extreme. Then the brands to beat will be hi-tech versions of Bentleys and ultra-lux cabins, so people can continue to do less and less in life, and just watch people do their makeup on Youtube.

This is how brands die. There have been plenty of brands that extinguish themselves through catering to the trend.

 

Fastest new Fiat a manual ...?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXP3Eij2GGA[/ame]

 

Well said. Or we can debate why downhill skis are no longer made of wood.

Why make a car slower for the sake of making it harder?

And who is Walter Mtitty?

 

I and many others hope you are right about the bubble. Real-estate has gone to a crazy level. Vancouver is the most expensive place on earth to live right now. Sadly I just don't see it changing anytime soon. It is now solidly on the radar of the super rich world wide and I just don't see it changing anytime soon.
Boxerman wants companies like Ferrari and Harley to be more exclusive and less mainstream. It helps his image out. He needs the horse on the front of a exclusive rare car that portrays the image he desires or we wouldn't be having this discussion. As the Viper video shows, there are still great manuals being built. The gt350r is another. REAL hardcore guys better start to buy these things or they will go extinct also. Boxerman won't be unless it's got a horse on the front and he can get it used. Doh!

 

I don't think that's his perspective at all. I can see it from his view and I don't think it's an exclusivity thing. There are some great manual cars being built but thank god for Porsche, who seems to "get it".

Vancouver isn't on the map for majority of the uber wealthy - save for one specific group. Too much rain and not interesting enough. Nobody, and I mean, nobody here in NYC is talking saying "hey, let's sell our condo here and move to Vancouver". It is a market where the high-end is dominated entirely by Chinese buyers. I know the history and market very well.

It DOES function effectively as a way to funnel funds, potentially illicit funds, since much less scrutiny than would be applied in major U.S. markets. Very little record keeping in Canadian market and too many prior incentives to bring investment over and provide visas/citizenship.

Those investments have turned down about 30% over the past year or so due to FX movements. They will fall further soon too, since once we (once again) eliminate the marginal buyer there, you lose all price momentum since domestic affordability is so poor. Not to mention the reliance on low interest rates to help support those buyers (some of them pay cash, many don't, and you need the ones who are also levering up, to keep that market going). As you are aware, market there is 5 years fixed rates, rest float, so rate increases are a death knell. Couple with rising U.S. rates and the fact Canada will be importing inflation due to weak currency, and you are in a very bad stagflation environment. Not good.

 

Back on-topic but for someone more technical-minded than I am, is there any avenue without adding much weight, to have a dual-purpose gearbox... where the manual mode is foot actuated clutch, and then there could be a fully auto mode?

Realize this is a bit odd to have... and not sure what the uptake would be.

 

Yawn! Still waiting for the '08 meltdown to get here.

 

The type of person owning Ferraris has changed over the last 10 years, from what I can see. Don't know if it's for the best or not. I had the opportunity to get one of the first 458s but decided to stick with the 430 because it is a manual.

I personally like the manual, and while my daily driver is an automatic, when I drive for sport, I like the manual transmission. Personal choice, but it is what it is.

An awful lot of the owners are from inherited wealth, but it's mixed bag some are pretty neat people, others can be a bit much, depends on the person, I guess.

The way I see it, when they started putting shields on non-racing cars was the beginning of the slide downhill. LOL

Art