This is another reason why non-racing Ferraris should have manual gearboxes.

I don't know, 1% is pretty rough.

Type 101, Maser has too many to mention

You and me both!

You and I both know exactly what I'm saying. I'm been trying to explain to others *why* Ferrari doesn't make 3 pedal cars anymore.

The why is quite different then I support F1 transmission *only*, I hope people understand the distinction.

I want Ferrari to make manual cars, but I understand *why* they won't. Until said conditions change as to *why* they don't , no use in crying or arguing they should.

 

It specifically said F430 - as for the California, I believe there is only 1 or 2 MT in existance. Again, I left the door open that Wired made a mistake and didn't make a correction

You are preaching to the choir my friend, I like MT better. But I *understand* why Ferrari no longer offers it. Two very distinct issues we have going on. I agree with you 100% if 20 out 100 (instead of 1 out of 100) new Ferrari buyers asked for manual, things will change. But until then, I see complaining sort of counter productive, I definitely think some folks here saying folks that prefer f1 our not 'real' drivers even worse.

 

Again, in terms of you pointing out the price differentials...

The Porsche GT3 is a competitor because every journalist will comp the GT3 vs. the 458 etc. Many will prefer the GT3. Many GT3 buyers can easily afford the 458 but choose not to. That is competition.

A 918 is a competitor to any hyper car (if you assume the car can be sold in the same market). It doesn't matter that the LaF is about $600k more expensive. By your logic, I would try to dismiss it as a competitor because you can buy a couple 458s or 20 Toyota Camrys + the 918...

I don't see how your pricing comparisons really tie into the argument. There is large overlap for many thousands of buyers for these cars. GT3 buyers, turbo buyers, and also many of the standard 911 buyers, are all in the same potential buyer pool for a $300k Ferrari.

 

Okay, if F430, then yes the Wired article is wrong by a factor of maybe 5 or 10x...

You referenced F430 and California in your post -- I know the cali manual take rate would be extremely low. Lumping together I believe the 1%.

F430 separately, despite all they likely tried to get it 99% F1 transmissions, they certainly did not succeed...

 

They might be wrong...always left that possibility open
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don't take my word for it, here is the prospectus for Ferrari - take a look what models they list as competitors..just realize you don't disagree with me but what Ferrari itself considers as cross shopping models. Base level 911 I believe is about 90K has about 345 hp? GT3 has closer to 500 HP but is still significantly cheaper than what Ferrari Marketing Research deems as a cross shopped model. Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying corporate report doesn't include it. Hence why I said 918/Gt/911 Turbo.
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Not following your point here. I am being honest, really not following the point.

I think I was pretty clear in what I said... the demographics of the buyers etc.

You keep shifting the focus to all these irrelevant points. I never said Boxster was an equivalent car. I know the price and HP of a base carrera and didn't say those were typically cross-shopped against Ferraris... so really don't see what you're arguing here?

To state it again, large pool of buyer overlap between 911 carrera s, turbo and GT3 buyers, and Ferrari buyers.

The demographics support it (based on income), anecdotal evidence abounds, and journalists always make the comparison.

The Ferrari buyer pool is a smaller pool, so it would fall as a subset of the 911 pool. I would draw a venn diagram... but there is very real, and material, overlap. Many of the buyers will have both, and sometimes will flip from one brand to the other, for various reasons.

 

I would argue a Noble M600 is not ultra lightweight nor ultra simple. Same with the GT4

I said it already, you want simple, light, driver-focused, 6-speed

Miata

done.

 

Also, Paul, you are not explaining "why" Ferrari doesn't make a manual to any of us.

There are many reasons why they don't. And I can list a whole slew of them. The reasons we are giving and focused on here are why they should make a manual.

 

I know you believe a typical Porsche buyer is the same as typical Ferrari buyer. I conceded sure there is some overlap, but by and large it's different clientele from say a GT3 buyer versus say somebody about to plunk down nearly 400 large for an FF (definitely for say a Macan/Boxster buyer), I've presented you with recent data from Ferrari supports my claim. I know you disagree, (as well as the Wired article)

I'm open to being wrong/corrected.

Sources, Data? I Will even thank you for presenting newer data that disproves the sources I base my assertions on.

 

why should I? I agreed with everybody that I would love to see a manual. Do people here really not understand the visceral joy of a manual transmission? I really need to explain it?

I thought this was just common knowledge? (Especially to those that espouse the superiority of it)

 

And I will argue a sub 2,700lb car, with very limited electronics, is ultra simple and ultra lightweight in today's context. A 3,000 car is already very, very light today. Even the Alfa (in U.S. trim) is pushing up near 3,000 lbs (2,700 lbs+?)

You say Miata but a Miata and a Noble are not in the same world in terms of anything related to this conversation... other than weight as it turns out...recent Miata generations were around that very same weight as a Noble M600 and a few hundred pounds heavier than an M400...

 

You didn't show any data. Ferrari's prospectus is not data. A wired article that sources nothing is also not data.

Furthermore, the Wired article's 1% vs. 5% or whatever the number may have been, doesn't change anything about the actual crux of my own arguments. As for my own sources, I have seen 5% thrown around on this forum (in fact, very recently) with estimates that in some areas it is much higher (UK) and some areas lower (1% France, perhaps somewhere between that here?) Again, doesn't really change anything relating to the situation today, here, after the prices for those cars have skyrocketed, suggesting a change in the supply/demand balance since then, which seems to signal some demand can be filled by new cars. Porsche has made adjustments to its own lineup to fill that demand, meaning that it isn't just a few crazies on the forums with pitchforks calling for MT to return.

 

The latest Miata is 2,200 pounds a M600 is a full 20% more at 2,700 pounds

in terms of simpleness, reliability, support (not to mentioned open air motoring) a Miata is transistor radio compared to a Noble.

You mentioned the M600, not me

Ultra-Lightweight: 20% more weight to a Miata is 'ultra lightweight' ?
Simpleness: a 300K noble is more 'simple' than a 25K Miata? - it was known to have typical limited production car exotic reliability
Driver Focused: Did you read John Barker's review where he said the right-hand mirror doesn't even allow you to make right-hand turns safe?

 

Hey I get it, you feel Ferrari cooked their Prospectus and Wired got it wrong. I'm not going to argue - you're saying my sources are wrong (without offering competing data) - what more can I say?

I'm happy to agree to disagree.

Be well

 

The latest Miata (i.e., the 2016 model) is around that weight.

Pretty much every Miata over the decade prior was the weight I quoted.

Seems to me you are avoiding my valid points through deflection and data sampling. I didn't say Ferrari should make a replica of the M400 or M600. I said that is along the lines in terms of weight and features. Deflecting and avoiding isn't going to convince anyone that a Miata is a valid substitute to a more lightweight, simplified Ferrari.

 

Again, misconstruing what I am saying and putting words in my mouth and on top of that, ignoring the logic I provided.

I cited data. Journalists put Ferraris against Porsches all the time in head-to-heads. Demographics of a 911 buyer are published and the income puts them in range of buying Ferraris (particularly given the number of leased cars). Anecdotal information on people who own both brands abounds. Comparisons of the cars by owners abounds. You choose to ignore these data and then cite the company's prospectus, which includes Porsche (the arbitrary 500hp cutoff is entertaining) and btw also cites Rolls Royce and Mercedes Benz.

I would like to see one Rolls that is more a direct competitor for the majority of buyers than a GT3... or even a Carrera S or GTS.

We can agree to disagree, but please don't put words in my mouth or deflect rather than address arguments head-on.

 

BTW, even the 2016 Miata is not 2,200 lbs. It is over 2,300 lbs.

 

Super_Dave, Mazda Miata (From Mazda's corporate website) is 990 kg

990 kg = 2182 pounds

(see photo or click below to direct link to Mazda Corporate Website)

MAZDA MIATA SPECS

Perhaps your 2,300 pounds you quote is US Spec?

I know the 4C is heavier in the US for safety equipment (Neither Mazda nor Alpha Romeo's fault)
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I've seen a multitude of tests of the Ferrari 458 against 911 Turbos all time. I've mentioned 911 Turbos already. Already addressed.

But let's get down to brass tax. The fact the MP4 doesn't offer manual didn't seem to deter you did it?

Can you explain why you tolerated it in your McLaren...and didn't just walk away if it's such a deal breaker?

Just trying to understand.

 

I take it you are not an Alfisti Sacrilege...

Perhaps the two of you should put each other on ignore...?

 

Last night had a shindig at SVF, asked GM point blank:

"I'm engaged in a debate where some people are arguing that there is a sizable minority that are demanding manual over DCT; furthermore..this has been negatively affecting your sales. What do you think?"

response:

"You would think that, but it hasn't been the case with the new cars. Overwhelming majority of people are asking for F1 Trans ... if the question even comes up"

Either the GM is lying, I'm lying, or your wrong Super_Dave - which I believe by your own actions (bought a DCT yourself in your MP4, supports my assertion?)

Here is a photo from last night though.
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apologies!!! excuse my faux pas!

Ignore? Why - this is getting fun! Super_Dave and I have a long history of disagreement. I almost liken him to my "Evil Kirk" twin. From what I've experienced - his views have consistently run completely antithetical to every viewpoint I have.

I relish this - this is what makes forums so entertaining.

 

Getting old... Lucky me: unsubscribed

 

Ignore on, good idea.

And apologies to others yet again caught in the crossfire.