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time has come to say goodbye- to Manzoni

Discussion in '296' started by maha, Jun 24, 2021.

  1. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    I see no Alfa 4c in this design at all.

    However what do see (that the Alfa also has) is a lack of sharp creases and more of a flowing design with big curves. This car is much prettier than a 4c and has much better proportions. Its much more 250LM than 4c.
     

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  3. Ferrari 360 CS

    Ferrari 360 CS F1 Veteran
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    Look at the rear 3/4 side angle on the 4c and the angle of the door on the 296 as it comes down from the roof. The intake scoop while a different shape is also to my eyes similar to the 4C.

    Agree though there is a lot of 250 LM in the shape and some Dino.
     
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  4. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    Because the Alfa Stradale that the 4c is based on came from the influence of the 250LM. To some degree, they are all related. But the 296 is closer to the 250 LM than an Alfa 4c.

    The 250 LM started the design ethos of a short hood, wide hips, big scoops behind the driver, and flowing curves.
     
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  5. faykau

    faykau Formula Junior

    Dec 19, 2013
    644
    That's exactly what I was saying in my first post. I love Pista and think that it is the best looking variant within the 458 family.
     
  6. SECRET

    SECRET Formula Junior
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    Not gonna argue with you there!
     
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  8. rossodino

    rossodino Formula Junior

    Dec 16, 2007
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    Totally agree!
     
  9. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
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    Some like it, some don´t. Do a search of what we were saying 15 years ago about Pininfarina and it was the same.

    (Although I still miss the Pininfarina badge).
     
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  10. NürScud

    NürScud F1 Veteran

    Nov 3, 2012
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    Amen.
     
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  11. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 Veteran
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    I think around the back of the doors by the window is what they are saying.
     
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  13. Ferro458

    Ferro458 Karting

    May 26, 2014
    176
    I think you nailed it completely. This car is a dog's breakfast of design elements thrown together, and a huge missed opportunity for Ferrari. If they are going to compete in the electric (or even hybrid world) it will have to be on the basis of superiority of design, and this is certainly not it.

    Why they dumped Pinnanfarina I don't know, but my F12 is the last and I'm keeping it.
     
  14. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    I thought many of the people Ferrari brought into the Ferrari design center are from PF; and that PF was basically floundering. So, the whole bring back PF, to me, it rings a bit hollow. Also, have you seen the new PF hypercar? It looks like they copied the LaFerrari and added in some 488 and 720. (they have improved the design over time though).

    For what its worth, I think the 296 is a great looking car (so far! want to see in person). I am least convinced by the front end, but it works. I am glad after some cars with a lot of lines and design elements, they kept this pretty clean- and its a little smaller, which is a step in the right direction.
     
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  15. Forza Scuderia

    Forza Scuderia Formula Junior

    Jan 13, 2015
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    :D That’s even funnier than the people waiting for the Versione Speciale of the F8 and F8 Spider!
     
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  16. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2007
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    The crease comes straight from the 60's prototypes. It's a great feature IMO.
     
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  17. U-Boat Commander

    U-Boat Commander Formula Junior

    Jun 7, 2008
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    No it doesn't. Show me one 1960s P car with that crease. It's not on the 250 LM, the 275, any 330P or even the 412P. You could not be more wrong.
     
  18. Dela

    Dela Karting

    Aug 8, 2019
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    I don’t think the Manzoni criticism is fair. This is the official sketch which should be attributed to Manzoni. I don’t know anything about automotive development but I guess after engineering has its say on the feasibility of some of the design elements, the final product may not look exactly like the original design. The sketch is amazing to me.
     

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  19. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    Here is what people do not understand about the Auto industry.

    People believe designers create the look of cars. Well, they do -- but they are not in charge. The MARKETING people are in charge of the designers THEY make the final decisions based on input from he designers and department heads. In fact the designers were BRIEFED by the Marketing department what they were looking for before the designers picked up their pencils.

    If you don't like something, blame the marketing department. They have to sign off on every design
     
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  20. isot

    isot Formula Junior

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    How can you expect to fall in love with such an object at first sight? I realize that I'm about to get into a tangle of subjective, objective taste, stylistic canons, technique and so on, but I try to stop a little earlier. How can you think of falling in love with a complex project in an instant? If I started to make a roundup of models released from 2011 to today - because Flavio Manzoni has been operating since around 2011, perhaps even 2010 - I would be sure to do something trivial, but I would also be sure to see how much more beautiful has been done in the last years. Let's mention a few: F12berlinetta, LaFerrari, Monza.
    Are you sure that when the F40 was born it was love at first sight for everyone? Do you think it was from the very first moment the myth it is today? I don't think so. I absolutely exclude it. Are we talking about the F50? Still not understood by many even today. Are we talking about the Dino 308 GT4? Or the F430. There are beautiful cars and less beautiful cars. Successful and unsuccessful. There were coachbuilders. Today there are Style Centers.

    I realize that times have changed, that the conditions in which these cars are born have changed. Today everyone makes a hypercar and thanks to 3D modeling more or less everyone succeeds. But here we are talking about Ferrari. And since we are talking about a fundamental pillar between history and myth, expectations touch infinity. Well: what I would like to say is If you can, go and see the Ferraris, go and touch them! Observe them, appreciate them on the go! And you will find that today they summarize all the history, the heritage, the technological know-how they have always had. A new project needs time to be understood and respected. Just like a new haircut or a trouser cut. There are canons, formal languages, philosophies, references and citations. And I find the 296 exactly the sum of all of this.

    When the 360 was born, there was a generation change. When the 458 was born, there was another generational change. Today the 296 is born, which has just given rise to a new generational change. Yes. because is something very different from the SF90.

    I understand what you say when you say "since it is Ferrari then we fall in love with it" but honestly I don't think it is.

    Exhaust systems are an example of the eclecticism of the new Style Center. In about 5-10 years look at what they have experienced: four exhausts two by two on each side, three central ones, two high exhausts, two rectangular exhausts at the extreme edges of the extractor. Finally, a single central exhaust. I can say the same for the treatment of the headlights or the themes chosen to give a strong connotation and identity to each car.

    If you like a new project from the first moment - with the exception of some very rare unexpected meteors like Monza - it means that it is a weak project, already seen to which our mind and our eye are used. If a project is too easy to read it's trivial, if too projected into the future it is difficult to understand. But honestly I would like to say that in the work of the Centro Stile as a whole - because it is made up of a team of very good guys and girls and not just by Flavio Manzoni - there is nothing that doesn't work. And honestly I would not see how to do otherwise! Look at Roma! Watch the Competizione! I mention the Monza again!

    To you the reflections :)
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  21. day355

    day355 Formula 3

    Jun 25, 2006
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    People forgive Ferrari everything, and Ferrari knows it, let's stop lying to us !!!
    Small correction, the F 12 had been ready for 2 years when Manzoni arrived, and it has nothing to do with this car in "reality".
    You don't think they waited until 2011 to design it and launch it in 2012 ...
    There is the ghost of Fioraventi who lives in the style center, and even if their obsession is to make him forget, they will not succeed, because we do not compare a genius to a manager !!!
    History has already judged Fioraventi, and I bet a lot of money that only the crumbs will be left for Manzoni ...
    With the exception of the Monza, everything else will be erased ... I do not count the TDF because it was developed from an existing base which is not his ...
     
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  22. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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  23. maha

    maha Formula 3

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    ok ... my initial thought about the windshield was horrible...at first i was so much upset by it, even the car looked ugly to me. then today i had a second look at the pictures... to my surprise... the car looked quite beautiful to me.. also the windshield seems to suit the design.... but what i said about manzoni... his teams designs are nice but they're slightly less organic. and i don't wish to bring back pininfarina again...
     
  24. crinoid

    crinoid F1 Veteran
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    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login First off the 296 GTB design is an absolute win and although Manzoni is taking credit I believe the cars designer is actually Stefano De Simone who actually penned the 296 GTB sketch that Dela posted above.

    Really these cars are sculpture and one cannot experience it through a pic. So developing certain opinions about it can be a bit premature. Perspective, light, scale, relationships, and nuance cannot be felt in a two dimensional little picture.


    I’ve watched a lot of Sketch Monkey videos and sometimes agree with him. He seems to be very good at photoshop. It is obvious he is an armchair quarterback. It’s real easy to tweak things already designed. Let’s see him sculpt a car from scratch. I’ve seen several videos where his stuff doesn’t quite work and is drawn a symmetrically and differs from one viewpoint to another.


    In regards to the 296 GTB. For him to essentially say that an LED on the head light is what will define the entire styling of the vehicle as “elegant” is completely silly. While details are important they are simply features and highlights of a complete design. He clearly doesn’t understand this cars design or Ferrari’s current trend toward smaller horizontal headlights. His tweak of the head lights immediately make the car look generic, dated and detract from the cars natural elegance that’s attained through its curvy metal.


    As far as the A pillar. I don’t agree with SM here either. The a pillar in black looks very nice. Anyone remember a little obscure car named 288 GTO ?? Yes, the black A pillar is just fine as it is.


    In reference to the tail lights. I do think there was a bit of missed opportunity here for Ferrari. I personally would prefer one single round light at each corner. However SM sketch doesn’t quite work. If you notice on the 296 GTB there is no light bar/third break light on the roof. I believe this is because the horizontal light bar at each corner are satisfying the regulations here. Notice we haven’t seen the brake lights in action in any of the promo footage. I’m presuming the half rounds below each light bar illuminate in red in addition to the light bars when brakes are applied. If I am correct I would certainly prefer this to interrupting the roof for an intrusive and clumsy light bar.


    In regards to design, Like Francis Bacon said there is no beauty that doesn’t have some strangeness to it. Well the strangeness is character and typically when something different comes out people start crying and picking on things that stand out to them and that is typically the character. So if you remove all the character from something then you have nothing but bland drivel.


    The 296 GTB is from what I can tell so far about 96% perfect and think when we see it at a dealership or going down the road it will be absolutely spectacular.
     
  25. isot

    isot Formula Junior

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    I disagree on practically everything. Flavio Manzoni was appointed director of the Centro Stile in January 2010. He completed the F12berlinetta. The sketches bear his name and also that of Andrea Militello and others. He dealt with the SA Aperta. For the F12berlinetta, Pininfarina's sketches prove to be very far from the final car. However I respect the opinions of others...


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    Centro Stile Ferrari Design
     

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  26. crinoid

    crinoid F1 Veteran
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    I think you’re mistaken. We’ve seen Manzoni’s version and it’s the flawed 812 SF. The F12 was Pininfarina and it’s obvious. It’s clearly not Manzoni’s style.
     
  27. isot

    isot Formula Junior

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    The sketches bearing the Pininfarina logo are very different from the F12berlinetta. The 812Superfast is from 2017. I have attached them on purpose just because you can see the difference a lot, anyway..
    If you take a look on the web you will find that F12 was sketched by Flavio Manzoni (Centro Stile Ferrari) and Pininfarina

    However it is not important. It doesn't change what I think about the current Ferrari and the beautiful projects that have been born and are being born under Manzoni direction.
     
  28. crinoid

    crinoid F1 Veteran
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    They each come up with many different concepts and sketches for a car and there’s no way to know the chronological order of what was done unless you worked there. So this is a bit of a moot point. The 812 needs help. The Porotfino needs help. The SF90 needs help. It’s quite clear that they’ve started getting other influences into Ferrari C. S. Manzoni is to F. C. S. is as Stan Lee is to Marvel.
     

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