News

Timimg Belts

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by turbo-joe, Dec 9, 2017.

  1. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2008
    5,428
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    who of you all knows the timing belt changes for a 365BB, 512BB, 512BBi, Testarossa, TR512 and 512M?
    so not would you think you know but what ferrari recommend or prescribe.

    a link would be good where all could read this.

    I need this for my new insurance, because this new insurance now also assure engine and gearbox damages but only if the service always is done how ferrari prescribe
     
  2. dwhite

    dwhite F1 Rookie

    I thought I read somewhere every 7 years. Have to dig out my workshop manual and see if it is in there.

    I do have a question. If you do service yourself and document it, is that acceptable or does it have to be done by someone they deem qualified.
     
  3. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2008
    5,428
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    because of I'm mechanic/technician with own shop I only have to document ( photos, bill from the parts ) all. that was told me would be OK. but I still wait for this statement in writen form
     
  4. rovexienus

    rovexienus Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 10, 2010
    414
    Sainte Colombe, France (near Lyon)
    Full Name:
    Jean-Michel Savary
    The 365 GT4 BB Workshop Manual mentions visual inspection of the timing belt at 15,000km to 20,000km (condition and wear), at 40,000km (replace if doubtful) and at 60,000km replace. There does not seem to be any maintenance action related to the installed age of the timing belt in that document. This is the same information as in the owner manual.

    There is an article from M. Sheehan which summarises the situation:

    https://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/article.php?reqart=SCM_200702_SS

    According to this article the timing belt age related maintenance actions recommendations from Ferrari would have appeared in year 2002 along with the program called "certified pre-owned program".

    On a practical note, I suppose that if the timing belt installed on an engine was not moving at all over a long period (example the engine was never cranked or never run for 10 years), the belt material could memorise the static shape and therefore potentially become fragile when running through the gears at the first re-start.
     
  5. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2008
    5,428
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    thank you for the info. so the WSM is an official document from Ferrari and they say for the 365 nothing baout the time/age.
    what about the other from the boxer group?

    sheehan is nothing official from ferrari, so not pertinent for the insurance, but interesting what gates is saying - 9 years. so I try to get a statement from gates
     
  6. rovexienus

    rovexienus Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 10, 2010
    414
    Sainte Colombe, France (near Lyon)
    Full Name:
    Jean-Michel Savary

    Agreed with the non-official nature of the article content.

    Attached the introduction page of the WSM in its English version, as indicated it is a translation of the original repair manual with added content for 512 BB and 512 BBi. The original manual in Italian is document 106/75, front cover image attached, (this one is only for the 365 GT4 BB).

    For the timing belt change, nothing specific appears in the English version for the 512 BB's, so I suppose this means the 512 BB and 512 BBi follow the same km based rule as the 365 GT4 BB for the change schedule.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2008
    5,428
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    thank you for the attached files. unfortunately only the introduction side and the 1st cover side
    could you post perhaps also the side where there is standing those 15 to 20K, the 40 and the 60K, would be great :)
     
  8. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    18,329
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #8 Steve Magnusson, Dec 10, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2017
    If I were the Judge at the lawsuit, I'd go with what's shown in the OM for each year/model/version (unless F had individually contacted the Owner with an updated specification) -- so that's going to be quite the excel chart ;). The US version specs are sometimes way extended because of a US law at the time that said every "emission" component had to last 50K miles or 7 years - and it seems "emission" = "engine" so no engine replacement service item is below those limits (whereas, the virtually same engine in a euro version shows less miles/time). There is a simplified spec from FNA for the US V8 models, Technical Information Bulletin 1215 (shown below), and it states there exists Technical Information Bulletin 1003 for the (US only?) V12 models, but I don't have a copy of 1003, nor know if it covers non-US models (Judge: things from FNA cover US models only). If someone's got 1003 please post it, but unless F sent the Owner a copy, and 1003 says that it covers all F V12s ever made with timing belts, it wouldn't apply to most of the models in your list or region (and, even if it does, unless given to the Owner at time of publication, don't see how it's the Owners responsibility to know that an update to the OM exists).
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  9. George Vosburgh

    George Vosburgh F1 Rookie

    May 26, 2011
    2,683
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Steve, you never cease to amaze me with your knowledge! That's an interesting insurance policy he's got!
     
  10. haudimal

    haudimal Rookie

    Dec 10, 2007
    29
    EU
    Full Name:
    Stefan
    Why don't you just take the information from the manual / maintenance and lubrication chart?

    512 BBi manual: replace every 40.000 - 60.000 km
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    18,329
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Agree, and hope it works better for him there than here in the US. Long history of easy policy to buy, but not so easy to collect here in the US and on FChat...
     
  12. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2008
    5,428
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel

    good idea, but it says nothing about the time, only about the km/mileage

    and I want to be on the safe side if something will happen that the insurance will pay then, otherwise it would be a waste of money for this insurance.

    thank you steve for the info and for the bulletin 1215. had no knowledge from this. so may be the FNA is different to Ferrari in europe? even in europe it is different a little from country to country.
     
  13. rovexienus

    rovexienus Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 10, 2010
    414
    Sainte Colombe, France (near Lyon)
    Full Name:
    Jean-Michel Savary
    Hello,
    Please find attached the two pages from the English version of the 365 GT4 BB WSM about the Timing Belts, the corresponding pages from the Italian version and a reference to the FNA Technical Bulletin 1003 in bulletin 1003/A. Regarding 1003/A, the content is about a new part number for the timing belt (187744). This part number looks like it applies to V12 65° engines starting with the 456, so not sure this is relevant to the BB's, Testarossa's, 512 TR and 512 M.

    If an insurance cover is involved, I think it would be better to contact Ferrari Germany about any current time limitation rules applying to the timing belts of flat 12 engines.
     
  14. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2008
    5,428
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    WOW ! ! !
    great infos :) thank you.
    but the same for the 365 BB it only says something with the mileage, nothing with the age/time.
    does somebody knows in what bulletin the 512 BB or 512 BBi is mentioned?
    the 550/575/612 info in bulletin 1003 A I think is not for the flat 12 family engines. so may be that the bulletin 1003 as steve already has written says some about the time for the flat 12 ?
     
  15. truedriverscar

    Aug 21, 2017
    20
    Here's the maintenance schedule from the Testarossa Owner's Manual. Unfortunately, it does not mention a time interval for the belts.

    At the bottom of bulletin 1003A it says
    Given they are referencing the part number 187744, I believe you're right that it does not apply to the flat 12 engines.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2008
    5,428
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    oh ! ! !
    replace only after more than 50.000 miles? without time limit???

    but inspect all 15.000, so also valve clearance inspect and adjust every 15.000. so all 15k engine out :(
     
  17. rovexienus

    rovexienus Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 10, 2010
    414
    Sainte Colombe, France (near Lyon)
    Full Name:
    Jean-Michel Savary
    I have just received a written confirmation from the Ferrari dealer next to my place (Gauduel, Lyon, France) that the factory has harmonised all timing belts replacement schedules to every 3 years or 50,000km whichever comes first. The exception is the 612 where the values are respectively 5 years and 50,000km.
     
  18. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2008
    5,428
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    #18 turbo-joe, Dec 11, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
    thank you jean-michel for this info

    but I wonder a little: all the years F was nothing saying because of the time/age, and now an official F dealer sent you this info. so it would be interesting sinve when F decided to do belt change every 3 years?
     
  19. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    14,564
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Makes no sense. Why is the 612 which shares the same engine as the 575, given a longer time frame?
     
  20. rovexienus

    rovexienus Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 10, 2010
    414
    Sainte Colombe, France (near Lyon)
    Full Name:
    Jean-Michel Savary
  21. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2008
    5,428
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    W O W
    every 2 years??
    who is doing this?

    but thank you for this "bad" information :)

    then I will get problems with my isurance because i don´t change every 2 years.

    this info is from 1992, so any update?
     
  22. rovexienus

    rovexienus Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 10, 2010
    414
    Sainte Colombe, France (near Lyon)
    Full Name:
    Jean-Michel Savary
    Hi Romano,

    I think the update (current recommended schedule) is 3 years or 50,000km between changes, which is what is indicated in FNA bulletin 1003/A of May 2008 (this mentions 30,000 miles, I assume compatible with 50,000km) and what the Lyon dealer confirmed. I just mentioned the 512 TR schedule back in 1992 because it was even shorter than three years. BB's and Testarossa's do not have a time related schedule in the documents we could collectively find. Not sure what happened but we can imagine that Ferrari needed to present a somewhat homogeneous policy for time belt changes.

    I think the insurance cannot find anything wrong if the change is made every 3 years/50,000km. But that is a costly maintenance schedule because of the engine-out procedure. My 512 BBi will have 3,000 km done at the most since last timing belt change by the time it comes due in June 2018.

    Just to be on the safe side, you could request the clarification on this subject from Ferrari Germany.
     
  23. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2008
    5,428
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    when I will be back in april from thailand I will send a mail to F germany, also have to check again with the insurance
     
  24. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Jul 25, 2008
    12,716
    Amersfoort, Holland.
    Full Name:
    Mel
    I have a new info booklet in front of me Romano, it is of the off F dealer Munsterhuis in NL.

    It says: all maintenace is now "harmonized" .... into a 8 cil menu and a 12 cil menu.

    Belts 50.000 kms or 3 yr .... also for the 612 ...
     
    turbo-joe likes this.
  25. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2008
    5,428
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    so every 3 years, because never drive 50.000 in this time
    thx mel
    could you please copy and send a pdf to my mail?
     

Share This Page