Hello everyone. I am a new member to the site and have to say it is very helpful and impressive -- an excellent resource. I have never owned a Ferrari. I am a fan of Benzes and currently own an '05 C55. I am considering a '95 355. The car appears to be up to snuff and I'll know better as I get more into my research of it, but my question here is not specific to this car. It is a general question/request. I'd like to hear stories about timing belts, specifically failures, how old the belts were in terms of years/mileage, what the damage ran. I'd also like to hear from owners who have 'pushed their luck' and have skipped belt replacements. I am just curious. I am an engineer and understand that belts are subject to alot of stress and heat and even potentially 'rot' for lack of a better word. I guess this is why Ferrari recommends replacing them every 15k miles or 5 years regardless of mileage. Although this may be "an ounce of prevention" to potentially save a very costly "contact" engine, I really think it is overkill and just a way to ensure good sales for repair departments (not that there is anything wrong with that -- money makes the world go 'round). In my personal experience, a family member has an '88 Nissan Maxima with 130k on it and the original timing belt. Honda used to recommend replacement of its belts every 90k miles, or every 60k under "severe" conditions. Though I wouldn't dare compare a 40-valve V8 Ferrari motor to that in a Civic in terms of engineering or a gamut of other factors, at the end of the day, the elements working against the belts are identical in both cars -- heat and the resultant decay. Ferrari engines might run hotter, but not that much hotter to really affect the properties of materials used in belt construction. Even higher RPMs shouldn't affect the belts -- its the number of TIMES (i.e., the mileage on the enginer) the belt turns and thus flexes and not the speed with which it is turning that will fatigue the material. This is my RPI engineering degree talking I suppose. I have no first hand experience other than the Maxima story, ergo, I am here to hear others accounts. Thanks and again I really think this is a great site. -Frank www.ftavaniassociates.com
There are quite a few stories about the belts, did they break, didn't they break, etc. However, one thing that absolutely has to be replaced when you do the belts are the tensioners. If the car makes a noise when starting, it's usually the tensioners, getting ready to seize. That causes major problems. Additionally, whenever the belts are changed, it's smart to either rebuild or replace the water pump, as those arent the most long lived items on the car. Whne doing the service, either use the dealer or someone with a lot of 355 experience. There are too many variables to allow someone to learn on your car, no matter how much money you save. If you look back on the posts, you'll see where people have learned that lesson the hard way. Hope that helps from a former 355 own. Art
very interesting. what model car was it? what is the significance of "#22641" at the end of your post?
I agree, the whole belt thing really is overblown. I had mine done recently, mostly to maintain proper service records. The old belt looked almost the same as the new one...
Thanks, Art. Speaking of mechanics, has anyone had any first hand experience with Algar Ferrari in Rosemont, PA? Near Villanova University.
this was on your 2000 360 I'm guessing? great car by the way incidentally, what was the mileage when you had the belts done? you said you inspected the originals. interesting, did you see ANY little surface cracks at all? even if you looked really close up and "bent" them at all? I'm almost tempted to ask you to sell them to me so I can inspect them myself since I'm so curious! maybe i'll start my own used timing belt collection and turn it into some art exhibit, like in the shape of a big dollar sign or something...
I have two non catalyst 308GTBs.... that car was a two owner, out of a 78 year old man's garage, very well maintained..BIG disconnect between service and miles....he'd gone 5K miles in 20 years, I drove it 2,400 miles home in four days.... My other car (and this one, now!) normally change them out per the 1977 intervals. I'm not advocating neglecting them, but like others here, have thrown old belts away that barely had wear marks on them! The motor's worth about $12K in my cars. It's all about feeling lucky, I suppose.......Those who don't know, run scared, those that know, change them as required. I think a crate motor for a 355 would be a little more $$$$$$!
You'll be OK with the newer 355, the urban myths on them are associated with valve guides and header burn out....... I've blown headers open as well..that's livin' man! Your car catches fire! Impresses the heck out of passing motorists, as you bail out and stop, drop, and roll......
I agree. Go out with a "bang"... In terms of these valve guides and header cracks I'm hearing are part of the deal with 355's, are either of these "spottable" in the field, or does one have to have the engine out of the car to spot the header cracks? What does the engine do (or not do) if the header cracks are a problem? if the valve guides are a problem?
Yes the belt issue is overblown. Acura says 90,000 miles or 9? years on NSXs. Same RPMs etc. The problem is ;the seed has been so firmly planted and the downside is so big, paranoia is rampant ,and I admit I am subject as well. A search revealed 50,000 miles, years not too important.
In my personal experience, a family member has an '88 Nissan Maxima with 130k on it and the original timing belt. Honda used to recommend replacement of its belts every 90k miles, or every 60k under "severe" conditions. Though I wouldn't dare compare a 40-valve V8 Ferrari motor to that in a Civic in terms of engineering or a gamut of other factors, at the end of the day, the elements working against the belts are identical in both cars -- heat and the resultant decay. Ferrari engines might run hotter, but not that much hotter to really affect the properties of materials used in belt construction. Even higher RPMs shouldn't affect the belts -- its the number of TIMES (i.e., the mileage on the enginer) the belt turns and thus flexes and not the speed with which it is turning that will fatigue the material. This is my RPI engineering degree talking I suppose. I have no first hand experience other than the Maxima story, ergo, I am here to hear others accounts. Thanks and again I really think this is a great site. -Frank www.ftavaniassociates.com[/QUOTE] The cost for breaking a timing belt in a little **** box is nowhere near what the cost breaking a timing belt on a Ferrari. Add up the respective cost or both engines. So changing the timing belt on a Ferrari is more preventive than repair. The belts are not very much and the it's not a hard job to do. Incidently, the same thing is true with the belts on your Mcar. They ought to be changed before they break too. Bob Wassam
Derogatory remarks about my mother's car aside, I realize the difference in cost of the respective motors. My question was directed at engineering principle -- not prevention. It ALWAYS can be argued that its good to replace something before it breaks to avoid damage. Heck, I guess a manufacturer can suggest replacing an entire transmission every 15k or 5 years too. Its obviously going to break at some point... Kidding aside, I know belts are inexpensive (though I image in reality Ferrari belts won't qualify as cheap). As far as the complexity of the job, well, I would think that replacing belts on a 4 cam engine that must be removed from the car to perfom the service is neither a simple, fast, nor inexpensive procedure. Correct me if I'm wrong. I certainly don't plan to do it myself I can tell that much. Finally, Mercedes uses timing chains in their motors. Nissan and other Japanese manufacturers are also returning to chains because of customer complaints about the recurring costs or maintenance of them. Also, the incremental savings in fuel economy of a belt vs. a heavier chain -- and also the incremental reduction in engine noise assocaiated with same -- well, and also because they are cheaper for the car maker to produce and sell (belts vs. chains) were the original reasons why belts started to be used in this manner. The benefits are so small though, that many believe they don't outweight the cost issue. This is perhaps why Mercedes has always used only chains. Thanks to all the posters with insights and great responses. It was very interesting and again, I was mererly curious.
I have some thoughts I really havnt heard discussed at all. Now I realise a Ferrari is not an airplane, but you could look at it in that light in some aspects. Most typical cars today are coming with these rediculous service intervals, where if you read the fine print, the interval doesnt really exist at all. Why belts? My belief, and I could be as wrong as I am right, is performance. That belt is almost weightless compared to a chain. The engine still has to accelerate, and it obviously could accelerate a almost weightless belt much easier that a heavy chain. Ditto the plastic sprockets. Belt change interval? To the people who race cars, how often do engines come out to be freshened? How many races before you yank the motor? The belt itself is cheap, I paid like $27 for the pair for my 308. I paid like $60 for the daughters Nissan. But the Nissan or a Honda probably doesnt rev like a Ferrari, or run as fast continuously. So I would assume the Ferrari belt is being stressed more? Back to aircraft. Light planes are inspected annually, and given a complete going over, engine cleaning, leakdown test, access panels opened up and all nooks and cranies inspected, and all adjustments checked, items replaced per manufacturer, etc. However, planes that are rented out, or flown commercially, even a lowly lil Cessna 150, must be inspected additionally every 100 hours, and its the same exact inspection and service. Under more strick flying, there is a higher standard, and yes, working parts are pulled and replaced with overhauled units at a certain number of hours or cycles. And overhauled in that sense means like a brand new unit. For example, using the Ferrari as a taxi would be commercial use, and under FAA rules a windshield wiper motor may need to be replaced every 500 hours. Hardly any cars are ever treated that way. How often are wheels pulled off and bearings repacked anymore? Many years ago that was done every 10-20 thousand miles. Every oil change the car was put up and grease zerks were pumped with grease. Rocker covers were removed and valves were adjusted, belts were replaced, hoses, new T stat, clean the battery, and on and on, and it was cheap to have it done. Now you cant hardly find anyone to do that work and its $$$$$. But it doesnt mean it "shouldnt" be done. Just because we are getting away with it, doesnt make it "right". Some time ago in reading an article in the MB club magazine, it was commented on how the newer cars were leaking oil at the cam cover and dirtying the engine. Why? Because they started using hydraulic followers that never needed adjustment, so the gasket for the cam cover was never replaced. There was a thread recently about if a 355 could be serviced without pulling the engine. And as usual there was an argument between the purists and the people just trying to service thier car without breaking the bank. I am in the middle. If it could be serviced completely and correctly without pulling it, great. But one thing cant be done, it cant all be cleaned and made back pretty as new. I dont think its really a question of how long you can go between belts, or how many years, its how nice and reliable do you want the car to be. Maybe its not that the belts could break at 30 or 50K miles, as much as it was just being nice to the car to pull the thing apart and "do it up".
yes they do break best to stay ahead of the game and change them regularly read on http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27811&highlight=timing+belt+broke http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43113&highlight=timing+belt+broke http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22758&page=2&pp=20&highlight=timing+belt+broke http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17246&page=3&pp=20&highlight=belt+mondial+broke
thanks for the links. i understand the notion of an ounce of prevention for a pound of cure, but the whole original intention behind my starting this thread was not to get too heavily into whether or not replacement at the recommended intervals was or was not a good idea, i wanted to hear about actual EXPERIENCES with failure and age and mileage. that first thread you listed above was perfect, though the original poster never answered the question of many: how old were the belts (probably because he was not the original owner and didn't know for sure / lacked some service records maybe).
krow, appreciate the post and the theory about performance is a good one and one that i have considered as well. again, i don't think that there is as much 'water' in this as one might expect. here's an example why: my 2004 Yamaha R1 (and, i think, every japanese sport motorcycle in production these days) uses timing chains. These engines have power output on a per-liter basis in excess of many Ferrari engines. In fact, Yamaha, like Ferrari, also uses 5-valves per cylinder. Also, bike engines spin FASTER than Ferrari engines -- much faster in fact. My bike's redline is 14,000 and is a 1-liter engine. A redline this high on a liter bike was unheard of 5 years ago. Race bikes are even higher than this. an interesting parallel might be my old 2001 Ducati 748, which, like Ferrari, used timing belts instead of chains (interestingly, its v-twin had a redline that was only 11,000). they had replacement intervals of 4000 miles. i mean, come on! in my opinion, and its just that -- opinion, the whole thing is just a way to ensure some reliable sales figures for dealer service departments using paranoia as tactic -- kinda like Catholicism (I am Catholic btw). i am convinced they fail, but i'm also convinced it is rare and occurs only on much older engines -- in terms of mileage and/or age. again though, the whole reason why i brought this up was not to argue or pontificate on engineering merits, all i wanted to hear were some real life horror stories and/or pushed-my-luck stories to try and bring some science and real data to this legend. data is the only way to bring real credence to any discussion. have a great day, Frank
I recently passed on buying a 348 Spider that had an engine with bad leakdown results because the belt had previously broke and the repair on the engine that was done using some of the previous valves (the side effects of cost cutting)....which were slightly imperceptably bent....which caused galling of the guides...etc...etc.....leading to the bad leakdown and the other issues as a result. Total estimate for the repair (in CAD $) is based on 32 valves....32 guides.....gaskets.....maybe a cylinder liner or two......labor...machine shop work.....etc....$20K CAD. The cost of a proper repair was not the issue....it was the potential of months of waiting for Luigi in Maranello or whoever to find the tiny .02 Euro "grapple grommet" that would have ended up on perpetual back order dooming the whole project to a 3-4 month wait. I do not know the circumstances under which the belt snapped (as in age of the part...etc) but I agree with your synopsis regarding every other vehicle on the planet that is belt driven. And without equivocation I believe that the new 3 year belt change interval from FNA is totally unwarranted (if you drive the car regularily...as in 3-4 times a week) and solely directed at providing revenue for service departments. FWIW......I'm 44......been around cars since I was 16.....have been in the business for almost two decades.......and only ever seen one belt snap in that time on a Porsche 928....due to an improper repair of same.
