timing belt change mileage interval -- Here we go again!

Yes there is something unique with the 348. One big belt that drives everything. that is why 3 years instead of 5.

5 years imo would be ok for the BB or 328 as they use two smaller belts that only drive their respective cam pulleys.

regards, Jim

 

This is the same ill-informed drivel that gets repeated every few months around here.

The 3.2L NSX engine (Honda) revs to 8,000 ALL DAY LONG. It has a belt, not a chain. It's service interval is 105,000 miles or 6 years, which ever comes first.

I do NOT want to get into a ridiculous (note the spelling) discussion of NSX's having no soul, etc. or a comparison with absurd comments like "it's still a Honda." You will look at my profile and see that I used to own an NSX, and assume I'm biased. But I'm not. I do consider F-cars to be more thrilling, and will have one in the not too distant future. That doesn't make them reasonable, though. When you look at FACTS, there is no reason that a high-revving sportscar must have such short belt life.

A friend of mine who was a very knowledgeable tech at a Factory dealer admitted the service game is BS...and where the bread is made. No real revelation there; but I have heard this acknowledgement firsthand from someone on the "inside."

I suspect the reason that belt change intervals evoke such strong emotion in current and future owners is that most owners are fairly intelligent. And most people who are intelligent enough to possess a toy like an F-car didn't acquire the $$ by getting raped financially in other aspects of their lives. As long as you understand that getting raped a bit comes with the territory, and I do, you should be OK.

 

I quess everyone has there own risk tolerance. That's really the answer.

I am not an idiot driver as some have assumed, but I bet in Chicago I am more likely to get rearended in m F-car than I am to have a belt failure. Do I not drive my car at all for fear of an accident, NO.

I do maintain my cars with routine service and maitenance on all my vehicles.

My real question is why are the Ferrari belts inferior to other manufactures. Why the feguency of repacement.

I understand the risk of failure and would never try and go beyond resonable, but I think we have been sold a 3000 mile service that may not be needed.

The answer may not be known. But I would think that someone would have come up with a better belt that may last as long as other car manufactures have?????

 

How does having two belts driving the items help longevity of the belt(s)? It would seem to me that if even one of the belts broke in a two belt setup you would need an engine rebuild. It seems like there is more chance of one of the two belts breaking than the single belt on the 348. I think 3 years is ridiculously low in expected service years for a timing belt, especially considering the amount of milage most of these cars drive.
BT

 

The single belt is longer and is now driving 4 cams and a water pump rather than 2 cams only. The 308/328 ran 2 belts then the 348 went to 1 then the 355 went back to 2 belts. The 288 and f40 also have 2 belts as does the TR and BB. Why did they go back to 2 belts? They tried the single route but dropped it at least on the V8's, not sure about the 456/550 setup. The square tooth design sucks compared to the rounded design that most car makers now use. Too bad you couldnt make a set of pulleys like was made for the 308 by a past member to use newer design belts.

 

I have asked several folks and top notch mechanics about why service intervals are depicted as broad, inconsistent and not too clear for exotic cars. Bottom line is to service the car as to how it is driven. Ferrari has service intervals that are designed to try cover the whole driving spectrum, from sitting garage queens to weekly track vehicles. Yes, if you track the car often, then change the T belts every 2 years or 12,000 miles (or less). If the car has sat for 10 years, don’t bother to change the belts at all until you one day decide to fire it up and take it for a spin. Perhaps Ferrari should have had stated this clearly, or given guidelines for driving habits and service intervals. this goes for all maintenance, (live on a dirt road, change your filters more often). As to why there is inconsistencies between maintenance manuals and production years, well then, that can be confusing. Just average it all out and come up with a number that is the average and go from there. I drive my 308 GTS about 2500 miles a year, and have been doing the timing belts every 5 or 6 years, and I am within the mileage number of 30,000 according to my manual. It gets good use living in the hills, very little track time.

 

Well for me I'll tell you why.

1) Because the shop manuals are very poorly writen. They are missing information that is nessesary. For example there is nothing in the manual that gives the proper gap clearance for the cambelt guides on the 348, nothing at all. There is nothing in the manual that gives you the proceedure of removing the engine subframe. Nothing in the manual that give the proceedure of disasembling the shift assembly that holds the stick. I can go on but you get the point.

2) Because FNA over charges for parts they Do Not make. Like a set of spark plug wires that they charge $1,250 for, when you can have the exact same wires made using the exact same components for less than $200. Or like the pump for the F1 system on a 355 that they charge $16,000 for, when the Exact same pump can be bought for $3,000.

3) Because the dealers charge crazy prices. Like when I have heard people getting quoted 40 hours to remove and replace the engine in a 348, when in reality it shouldn't take more 16 hours abosulute maximum, removed and replaced combined. Then topped by the nuts labor rates, like $120/hr. Or like when I hear you have to use "Ferrari approved" oil in your engine that they charge $15 a quart for, when you can get better oil for $5 or less a quart.

It's things like this that cause me not to believe Ferrari.

 

But, the NSX engine is not as likely to saturate the cam belt(s) is oil from leaking seals nor is it's tensioner bearing(s) as likely to fail as on a Ferrari.

 

What he said! Hit the nail on the head.

 

Exactly because Honda can design oil seals properly.

I'm not sure if it's this thread of the other where I discussed these points, but I'll try again.

1) Many things involving Ferrari are done very poorly. Is this excusable?, no not really, but Italian car companies are not like the Japanese ... heck if they were this (imaginary?) issue would have been sorted years ago. In Ferrari's defence they have probably altered the recommendations on timing belt replacements as they have been 'sued' due to failures ... and as others have said, some use their cars, others don't, some even race them. There is just no single possible solution. They really need to have separate servicing recommendations for tracked cars (maybe).

2) Yes ALL car manufacturers make a fortune out of servicing their vehicles, it is part of the game. Just like we all make money out of charging our clients ... this is how capitalisim works. Many people keep on telling me that to be a Ferrari owner you must be smart ... well the really smart ones will have already worked out where to buy the cheaper (but same) part, won't they?

3) Rich owners of Ferrari have themselves to blame for these charge rates. Lets see, these professional people expect that their Ferrari dealership and workshop to look like some sort of palace, tiled floors, fancy everything, etc., etc., etc. ... this costs money, and thus all this prestege image has to be paid for ... by YOU when you take your car there. Nothing is for free.

My parents actually used to work for a prestege car dealership/service department place and it was (to me) just the most awesome workshop, showroom, etc. ... but man it costs dollars to maintain that look. Remember also that prestege car dealerships do NOT have the through put of say a Toyota dealership ... thus there rates have to be higher to keep the doors open.

Thus again, as I have said many times before, you want to play the prestege car game, well you have to accept the prestege servicing rates. Otherwise buy the Honda, Toyota, etc.

Regarding the time taken to do tasks ... hmmm, I used to race cars at club level and my engine builder (he did the machining, etc. ... but I used to do the final assemblies) used to actually have a pretty good hourly rate, but because he was so thorough and such a perfectionist it would take a much longer time to do things than many other people. I thus can excuse to some degree a Ferrari mechanic taking longer than a Toyota mechanic doing the same job, cause I would expect the Ferrari guy to triple check things and to take more care. He also probably has to stop and clean the tiled floor a few times ... which the Toyota guy would just ignore

Basically many of you, simply want your cake and to be able to eat it too ... and yet I bet you all charge like wounded bulls when somebody steps into your doctors/lawyers/consultants office. Tables have turned and you do not like it ... heck never would I, but I know I could not afford to play the prestege car game so keep out.

Pete

 

Two years, 10 years? no miles, eleventy billion miles. I was less confused before reading this thread. Excedrin anyone?

 

The best way to look at this is from a cost analysis. How much will the 30K service cost you? How much to repair/replace said engine if the belt breaks. Which next leads to Dealer or Independant repair? Nobody does the 30k less than 3 years right? So depending on what model you have and what you think the gospel is for that car, 3 or 5 years. Now how many years can you drive after this, before the costs match?
Other thought seems to be...wait for that oil leak to be so bad, water pump leaking etc.... to rationalize doing the 30k. How many times do we read about people who just did the 30k only to have another issue pop up a year later. Now the engine comes out again..

 

I would never drive it until the belt breaks regardles of the cost of a new engine vs the belt job. The engine wouldnt need to be replaced anyway if the belt went. If my car never sprang an oil leak that required engine removal then I would go at least 7 years on the belts (3-5 for a 348 because of the single belt) but if the cam seals were leaking then thats different, guess there is no one right answer, do what suits you best and what lets you sleep at night.

 

question was asked, here is the answer:

FERRARI NORTH AMERICA, INC.
TECHNICAL SERVICE DEPARTMENT
TECHNICAL INFORMATION

Area Model Bulletin n° Date Pages
1 All 8 Cylinder models 1215 May 2004 1

SUBJECT: Timing belt for 8-cylinder engines

For your information, all 8-cylinder Ferrari models, independent of the Model Year, must
have the timing belts replaced every 30,000 miles or every 3 years, whichever comes
first.
For information on Timing Belts for 12-cylinder engines, refer to Technical Information
Bulletin number 1003 dated October 2002.


Now you can either except it or do as you wish. But If you do go beyond recomendation, and something happens, do not come crying to FNA which is pretty much being said in that bulletin.


I have stated my personal recomendation in an eariler post from my experience, and this is what I would do If it were my car.


best regards, Jim

 

Jim,

They will choose to ignore this ... why?, cause an earlier book, note or rumour said something different. And ofcourse poor old Ferrari are not allowed to change their minds or make updates to documents.

Very few people are being practical about this timing belt issue IMO. In the end you have to have some degree of faith in Ferrari ... or simply don't buy one, or especially don't expect sympathy if it lets you down.

I have heard of people driving around on original tyres too ... but that should not make us all run around and question whether we EVER need to actually replace our tyres, or heaven forbid, drive on them until they fail (based on the fact that panel damage estimates might be less than the total cost invested in tyres over the years).

Pete
off topic: Man I wish we could get back to engineers running the world instead of these soulless accountants ...

 

I think this is closest to the truth. By giving such a short interval for the belt change they are covering their butts of any legal recourse. It makes it very hard to say anything against FNA, and have it stick, with them officially giving such a short time frame, and such low milage, for any V8 regardless of model.

So where do I want to take advice from? Sould it be from the "official" bulletin that a the lawyer helped write, or should it be from common mechanical sence.

I'll take the common sence approach thank you.

 

Pete,

Why do you feel a need to cheer when other enthusiasts get bent over? Why the joy? You've already said you're not willing to play in the arena, so you've not had the 'pleasure' of dealing with Ferrari dealers, the BS games, and Ferrari's blatant money grabs, and likely never will. What experience with Ferrari timing belts do you bring to this conversation -- or are you just here to play the role normally held by Horsefly?

 

There was talk about the NSX seals and bearings. The lip seals of a Ferrari are the same damn lip seals on an NSX (just different sizes) The tensioner bearing on a Ferrari are made by SKF..so are the bearings on the Honda. Car manufactures use the same suppiler's as other car manufacturers. There are only so many companies that make oil seals for camshafts and cranks, and there are only a few companies that make tensioner bearings for cars..Timkin and SKF being the most common. All these parts must meet an industry standard for life and quality before then can be used in a production product.

The argument of the tensioner bearings and seals wearing out faster on the Ferrari compaired to anyother automotive product is false. What must be looked at is the quality of the component being sealed. It is "true" is the material made correctly so it does not "groove out" on the seal..etc.

Ferrari cam seals are very good on the 308QV, TR, 348 (once they updated them..again a factory designed DRAINAGE problem..not a seal issue), 355, 550, 456...etc. In most all cases cam cover gasket leaks are mistaken for cam seal leaks. I have come accross few actual cam seal leaks.

Tensioner bearings will indeed fail..but they fail mostly becuase of lack of use, incorrectly adjusted cam belts, over washing of the engine, or just plain old age. I have had a few come apart in my hands, but on all occations the part was well over ten years old.

Timing belt changes are a wise thing to do..but every 3 years is just throwing your money out the window.

 

Ferrari's official 3 year, 30,000 mile timing belt policy is decent...when you consider that they are giving 1 recommendation that is supposed to cover all driving styles in all climates.

It's tough to imagine one standard fitting all driving styles, e.g. daily driver, track driven, garage queen, road warrior, stop-light-dragster, etc...much less covering all climates from Saudi Arabia through Alaska.

Perhaps Ferrari was boxed into taking a single position due to lawyers and lawsuits.

Consider: Ferrari's 348 Competizione LM models can often change their timing belt after every race, or after every 3 hours (yes, 180 minutes) of driving, whichever is longer.

So the official 3 years and 30,000 miles change interval for a 348 C/LM would seem quite a stretch.

In other cases, belts warehoused in non-climate-controlled Arizona storage buildings have been known to not last out a year (once they are finally used).

Likewise, belt guides that are too tight are going to reduce belt life. Belt tension that is too tight will reduce belt life. Oil and engine cleaner solvents will reduce belt life. Failed tensioner bearings will reduce belt life. Long periods without driving will reduce belt life.

The other side of the coin is that regular driving...time-wise and performance wise...in non-extreme climates...with proper tension and non-rubbing belt guides and bearing that aren't failing...is going to come nowhere close to wearing out a belt in 3 years or 30,000 miles.

But to all this keep in mind that pulling the 348's engine takes very little time or effort.

I'd never done it before on any car, yet managed to pull my 348 engine/sub-frame via Ernie's simple "two jack" method in less than 8 hours this month. The most difficult part was convincing myself to actually do it (what! That car has a chrome prancing horse on the grill! Do I dare yank out the *engine*?!).

It's just not that much trouble for even a novice like me to pull the engine. The mental fear factor is the biggest hurdle, I kid you not.

Now I understand that if you've got my level of fear, that pulling the engine is a daunting thing. And I understand that if you are playing "checkbook mechanic" that you are concerned about the labor costs. Those are reasonable worries.

And when you combine those very real worries with the official Ferrari change interval, factor in your climate and driving style, as well as potential risks and costs, it all adds up to be a pretty big deal.

One thing that you should do is to remove the cam belt inspection covers with the engine still in the car. Those inspection covers are there for a reason. Once removed, you can see if the cam belt guides are rubbing on your belt. You can see if any of your teeth are cracked, and you can inspect the entire belt for cracks or rubber disintegration by jacking up your car and turning your wheels forward by hand with your car in 5th gear.

This should give you a vague aproximation of how your driving style and climate (or previous owner) is wearing your cam belt.

This is a wear item. Frankly, 30,000 miles on a rubber cam belt is more than most of us will get from a set of tires.

And tires, like cam belts, are going to wear at different rates based upon climate and driving styles.

Likewise, you can inspect your tires and your cam belt all day long...you still won't prevent every blowout.

But it's still a good idea to inspect. You'll catch some, maybe even most, major problems *before* they become a problem that way.

And in this manner you'll be able to make a more informed decision on your belt changes (and tire changes, for that matter).

Add it all up and that's why the cam belt discussion is never ending; we've all got different driving styles, we live in different climates, we have different levels of mechanical confidence, and we have different financial and risk profiles.

Getting one time interval from Ferrari on our cam belt is treated just as we'd treat one tire change interval...it would just serve as a base for our own style/comfort for replacement calculations.

If you clean your engine a lot, then you are going to be changing your timing belt more often (e.g. engine solvents). If you've got an oil leak onto your cam belt, then you are going to be changing it sooner, too. If you don't drive weekly, then your change will be more often. If your climate is harsh or your driving style is to the limit, then you'll need to change your belt more often. Ditto if you have a low risk tolerance.

In fact, I'd bet that your tire-change habits will resemble your belt change habits. Do you go through tires fast or slow? Or do you still run on old, hardened, factory original rubber? Compare your tire wear (faster or slower than average) and adjust Ferrari's similar cam belt change interval accordingly. Add in how much risk you are prepared to take. Subtract for your use of engine cleaning solvents, oil leaks, climate, garage storage time (your cam belt will harden/form hard curves if the engine isn't run over long periods of time), etc.


At some point in the Future, after the 430 chains are well accepted/proven in the marketplace, I'd guess that even Ferrari will issue revised belt change intervals that vary based upon climate and driving style.

Until then (and perhaps after), the timing change interval will be a recurring debate.

Rage on, Tifosi!

 

Most of your points are very valid, but I have witnessed the other side of owners ignoring servicing and then blaming everybody else for their own failure ... trying to get things fixed for free by my parents garage for example.

I've seen Alfa Romeos come back with newly blown head gaskets with grumpy owners going off the block saying it was only done a month ago ... we reminded them ofcourse that THEY did not come back for the head retorque after we spent ages explaining to them that it was a critical part of the process, even had them booked in. This topic is no different, Ferrari are telling you what to do ... but you know better. Heck this guy probably thought he good save a few bucks on not having the retorque too ... probably along the lines of "... or should it be from common mechanical sense."

These timing belt threads are nothing more than owners trying to save a buck, trying to booster their ego and be able to sleep at night again.

So yeah you are right, I've no direct experience with Ferrari timing belts, but I know enough about rubber timing belts to replace them immediatedly (like the first weekend) whenever I buy a second hand car (regardless of mileage) ... but yeah my cars are old and cheap compared to most of you, but mine are also very reliable thanks
Pete
ps: Tilman, I guess I'm just pissed at this lack of maintenance direction. My father has instilled in me a very strong mechanical sympathy and I maintain my cars the very best I can. You guys are lucky enough to own Ferraris and you are getting bent out of shape over a servicing cost (heck most of you rotate your cars so quickly that you will only see one of these in 5+ years anyway). I'd like to own a Ducati (for example) to go to work and back on ... but I don't, I ride a Suzuki ... why?, cause I've done the maths and the Ducati would just cost too much in servicing. Surely you guys think when you buy Ferraris to? ... or is it just too exciting?

 

Maybe you can go over and tell Spirot "your" drivel as he attempts to finish up the belt replacement on his 308. Oh yeah, along with a set of valves. When your Acura munches a belt, the damage wont come anywhere close in terms of dollars spent that a Ferrari can assume. Most everyone around the country who has broken a 3X8 belt has spent over $15K at a shop, some a lot more. I would assume a 348 would well exceed $20K. Your risk, your drivel. Jeeze, did I spell check everything correctly?

 

I have no idea who Spirot is. The fact is a crate engine for the NSX cost about the same as an entire 308.

My point still stands about lifespan of the belt.

 

I just did the belts on my 1975 308 GT4. They were new 2500 miles ago on engine rebuild, which unfortunately was also 13 years ago under the previous owner's don't-drive-it-much campaign. On removal, the old belts looked flawless, though how can you tell when they're ready to fail?

Andrew Watry