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Timing belt noise after major

Discussion in '348/355' started by go_faster, Apr 30, 2016.

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  1. go_faster

    go_faster Rookie

    Jul 26, 2011
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    Chris smith
    #26 go_faster, Apr 25, 2017
    I ran it without the accessory belts and there is no change. The only changes made after the first event were the hills tensioner and idlers, the reengineered oil chain tensioner (from ricambi) and dave helms? timing chain tensioner pad. The noise started after that event and wasnt fixed when EVERYTHING else was changed this time so I expect it has to do with one of those. The hills parts felt really good when I had it apart but..... Has anyone ever had a problem with them being defective when new? I may pull this apart again and look for a bend on the drive cogs or cam pulley 'shields'. If the cogs on the belt were hitting a bent shield it might make this sound.
     
  2. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    Miroljub Stojanovic
    #27 m.stojanovic, Apr 25, 2017
    Perhaps one of the chain tensioner pads is making the noise. Is any pad made of harder material than the factory one?
     
  3. ghardt

    ghardt Formula 3

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    #28 ghardt, Apr 25, 2017
    The accessory belts do not run around the water pump. That would be called a timing belt. There is a separated idler pulley for the accessory belts. Accessory belts run the a/c and the alternator.
     
  4. phrogs

    phrogs F1 Veteran
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    #29 phrogs, Apr 26, 2017
    Video the noise and post it on YouTube then post the youtube link here so peeps can hear what you're hearing.
     
  5. go_faster

    go_faster Rookie

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    #30 go_faster, Mar 10, 2019
    Has anyone ever determined the recommended load and deflection numbers for the 348 timing belt? I know the Staeger recommendations are 140-160 but I can find no reference (or way to translate the Staeger) tension to use a more widely available tool. We would need to know deflection in mm and load in NM or daNM. If we could find this then confirming belt tension would be much simpler. I did measure my tension after the self tensioning spring was used but it seems to be tighter than I generally see on other vehicles.

    If there is an inherent error in this logic please forgive me. I am a hobbiest with better than average mechanical skills, but not an expert.

    I am still chasing a slight whining noise.
     
  6. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #31 Wade, Mar 10, 2019
    Do you have the workshop manual? Under most situations, the belt is replaced instead of "reset".

    For example, from B56 and B57.
     

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  7. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
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    #32 Ferrarium, Mar 10, 2019
    Just a thought, when you replace a belt it can whine sometimes (like a super charger speeding up when you accelerate) until it stretches a bit. This is not a Ferrari thing its in general. Are you sure that's not what your hearing?
     
  8. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #33 ernie, Mar 10, 2019
    Don’t over think it.

    The spring for the tensioner bearing is really strong. I had to put all my weight on the tensioner to get the spring completely compressed before I put the belt on. Let the spring do the work. Once I have the belt on and the tensioner released I rotate the engine at least 4 complete rotations, clockwise, before I lock the tensioner down. I also lock the retaining bolt down as I am slowly rotating the crank, and watching the tensioner to see when it is stretched as much as possible by the spring. I then pluck the belt to feel the tention, and listen to the belt for tautness.

    Simple.

    No fancy schmancy Steager meter.
     
  9. Cauf61

    Cauf61 Formula Junior

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    #34 Cauf61, Mar 10, 2019

    I have done that before removing my old belt. It is in cm !. Hope you can do something with it. I pushed very hard and the belt deflected from 6cm to 7.5cm. So 1.5cm flexing.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  10. Cauf61

    Cauf61 Formula Junior

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    #35 Cauf61, Mar 10, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
    As double check i used "g-string" app ( for tuning guitar strings) and checked for a resonating belt at +- 110-120 hz. This is where i plucked the belt to get 120Hz. And it works really fine. If you loosen the belt a bit it immediately goes down to 100hz.

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  11. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #36 ernie, Mar 10, 2019
    As for the whining noise, what condition were the front and rear drive pulley bearings in? Was there any play in the drive pulley? If so those bearings may be shot. There was a TSB that came out to replace the old roller style with the new ball bearing style bearings.
     
  12. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
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    #37 Ferrarium, Mar 10, 2019
    Do you know if it make that sound before the service?
     
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  13. steved033

    steved033 F1 Veteran
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    #38 steved033, Mar 11, 2019
    an aside note: DO NOT Google "G-String App" while at work.

    Gates has an app for doing belts on bicycles that I used. "Gates Carbon Drive" I used the Ernie method (crank over then lock tensioner without extra pressure). I'd pluck both the tight side and the loose side (engineering curiosity) I'd get two numbers that added up to about 290. 145/150, 112/180, (can't remember the third time).

    I had a video of it somewhere...

    sjd
     
  14. Cauf61

    Cauf61 Formula Junior

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    #39 Cauf61, Mar 11, 2019

    Good advice on the G string app . LOL

    Measuring both sides would perhaps give a better result.
     
  15. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
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    #40 SoCal1, Mar 11, 2019

    Tried that app on android and iphone
    Not accurate as the real deal

     
  16. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #41 ernie, Mar 11, 2019
    I still have the video clop in the text you sent me.
     
  17. Cauf61

    Cauf61 Formula Junior

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    #42 Cauf61, Mar 11, 2019
     
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  18. Cauf61

    Cauf61 Formula Junior

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    #43 Cauf61, Mar 11, 2019
    I put my tension as advised by the wm. After that is measured the max deflection ( as pictures above from the old belt ) and it was also +- 1.5 cm full min-max flex.
    Then i used the G string app and had +- 125 HZ as i read somewhere (120-140 Hz).
    So i think it will be just fine now.
     
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  19. go_faster

    go_faster Rookie

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    #44 go_faster, Mar 11, 2019
    I will try the HZ method. Thanks for that advice

    Ernie, I have changed all the internal bearings around the oil and timing chain, new Hills tensioners and completed the TSB upgrades including the ball bearing in the rear of the chain sprocket, and case bearing (hills). The chain tensioners and pads were changed and the lower upgraded per the TSBs. Motor has been out three times. Belt bought new in each case. Water pump also changed. No difference, still have whining noise. Worse when cold, sounds like a quiet gear drive they used to use on sbc engines. I've drove it 6-8k miles and no change. Noise began directly after first engine out.

    I am suspecting it was a defective new bearing and will be changing them all again. I just want to categorically ensure my belt tension is not to blame before doing all that. I have the engine out now and about to do a head gasket change so I was looking to find the deflection to do an accurate reading to rule that out, before pulling the front end apart, again.
     
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