Timing Belt to Chain Conversion..Possible?

No.

 

I think I can understand how you'd get to raise the question, but any converison (anything is possible) makes no sense.

 

Yes.

Fit a 400 engine, and enjoy the extra power that comes with it.

 

Me thinks by the time you developed and fabricated a system that would work, you'd have spent enough money for 10 belt changes. Maybe more.

Ken

 

Interesting question--Answer --yes it is possible. I have been looking at making conversion kits for any number of engines now and I have determined that it is technically possible to do it on most Ferrari engines. There are problems however:

1.) Cost: It may not make financial sense for me to do it on the 3x8 series of cars because of cost of conversion to value of car. For the 355/360 and 456 and 550 group it may be more feasible (Maybe also for the TR series.)

2.) Desire: They cost to make these things is going to be initially pretty high. I am looking at keping the cost to what the dealer charges for a typical engine out belt change-say $6500 on average. But that would be the cost for the kit alone--You still need to pay for engine out and kit install. So in the end about $10K or more for full conversion. This may make it a non starter for peope to buy. (Price is still TBD--it is looking like I can make them a bit cheaper--maybe a lot cheaper-the price above was a first swag at it.)

Technical details:

The kits has been schemed out by myself and the engine group from Elan Motorsports Technologies (EMT) EMT is the race car group for Don Panoz. It includes G-Force (IRL) Van Diemen, Panoz Motor Sports, etc. The engine group has experience with Ferrari engines, having been the engine builder for the Olive Garden/Rafanelli Ferrari 550 GTS car that ran in the ALMS, among many other engine programs.

Basically, each kit has a new CNC billet front cover (Chain cover) that replaces the plastic/aluminum timing belt cover. The new cover is semi-structural and carries bearings for the chain gears (In some engine models-not all.) The cover also carries an o-ring groove in its face for sealing. (Like a Hewland/X-Trac gearbox face.) The kit replaces the belt pulleys and belt with a duplex roller chain, proper gears and chain tensioning device. (Similar to what is used by Ferrari in there earlier V-12's) There are also idler gears and chain whip guards as necessary per installation.) For lubrication we have incorporated a gerotor pump assembly into the billet cover, driven off of an idle gear to supply oil to the chain. The oil is picked up from the existing dry sump thru a new bulkhead fitting in the tank and is carried to the pump thru "aeroquip line) The chain is lubricated thru a spray bar system that hits the chain and all gears/bearings. We do not pressure feed any bearings at this time. (No street engine does, that I am aware of.) We have a small internal sump and pickup line to pull oil from the bottom of the housing and return it to the sump.

Right now the kits are still in the design stage, mostly drawings and CAD models for a 360 and 550 motor. We are not going any farther forward right now until we better understand the market and business potential for all of this.

If this sounds like s conversion kit that people want, we may continue with it. What say you all out there?

 

fixer--a 400 motor wont fit but 330 is perfect

 

Cap'n, looks good to me! I plan on doing my own engine out when the day comes, so the labor costs won't be an issue. I have been setting aside some disposible income into a reserve account specifically for the 30K service based on the assumption of having it outsourced. If the chain comes to fruition, then I will seriously consider it for my 355. If you'll be at Mitty this week end, we can talk.

Jeff Davison

 

What about 348?

 

I do not have the AC in my '77 308. When the mechanice changed the belts last, it took him 45 minutes.Done...Cheap.

 

Most Ferrari owners don't own the car long enough to life out more than one set of belts until the car is quite a few years old and has passed through several owners. So the first few owners won't do it. Simple economics won't work for them. Once it has passed thru several owners and has depreciated that far (the place many 308's are in now) there is greater reluctance on the part of an owner of a 20 year old car to spend that great of a percentage of the vehicles worth to offset future service costs, costs that owner may never experience.

Then there is the reluctance on the part of a huge percentage of owners to modify a Ferrari.

Look at the coil on plug mod for the 355 that was written up here. Looked to me to be a great set up and not all that expensive. When the time came for people to limber up their check books no one was around.

I hate to rain on your parade but don't spend a great deal of money on development, I don't think you will recover it.

 

BTW... it was I who "brought to life" the COP conversion for the 355. It wasn't because people wouldn't "limber up"....Was because I never mentioned the availability of a kit. I decided not to do it myself for others becuase of the labor involved for me to hand fabricate each harness individually. If i farmed out the harnesses and brought kit prices into a reasonable range, the market would probably bare quite a few kits. One reason I didn't want to "do kits" was the liability factor. I wouldn't want to be the one to be blamed for mis-installed kits or other problems unrelated that may thrown my way. Sure I could have lawyer write me a waiver for the cuctomer to sign, but thant's another reason I didn't want to do it for others..too much hassle. This is my hobby and I don't need it to become a business (at this point). If I decided to make 200 kits instantly available, I'm sure that I would have a back order on my hands.

If I bought a "kit" from Brian, I know his background, the background of the people he is working with, and I myself would take full responsability and liability of the kit and it's installation.

Since I am not a "proffesional" I dind't want to make myself "vulnerable". While I am absolutely sure my C.O.P MSD DIS4 ignition is safe and foolproof and worth the effort I put into it with no negatives and all positive results, like I said, I don't want the responsability and potential liability. That's why I am more than willing to help other D.I.Y themselves. I feel there is absolutley no risk in the system, I don't want to take the risk from others, of which I'm more than sure will come my way if the installer were to mess up or find someone to blame for another probelm. If it wasn't for the fact that these are for Ferraris, not Mustangs, I'd probably be "pumping these out" as fast as I can make them.

I may not be the "normal" Ferrari customer, or tweaker, but I can see VALUE in Brians proposal for a chain drive conversion for the 355 / 360.. More so for the 355 as there is no removable panel in which to accsess the front of the engine. If I'm going to service the belts, I wish to only do it once and be done with it for as long as I own my 355, and it will be a much longer time if it had chains!

JD

 

Actually it was from your own posts that you mentioned you were going to make up kits and that only 3 or 4 people were interested. If that is not really the way it was sorry for the confusion. My comments are based on the feeling and experience that would suggest that my serious interest in your COP and your interest in the chain drive set up are both indeed an aberration in the Ferrari world and that the expense of R+D as well as tooling up costs, prototyping and working out the bugs would not be paid for in the small number of units sold. That is after all what I thought we were being asked when comments were invited. If it is being considered for the sake of carrying to fruition an intellectual exercise it sounds like it ought to be an interesting one.

 

Bringing back a very old thread to see if the Timing chain conversion ever came to fruition?

 

No.

 

Post #31
FROM BELTS TO CHAIN CONVERSION? | FerrariChat

 

So amazing to be able to use the same reply 19 years apart from the first time you called this!

 

All you need to do is read the 400/400i/412 forum to realize that chains (on multi-bank overhead cam engines) really aren't any less troublesome nor less expensive in the long run .

 

Plus the cost of conversion. Now the 308/328 series is reaching the point of collectibility that originality is a huge factor in valuations, so a change like that would really detract.

 

Why ?

 

Steve- They worked pretty well on my Daytona and were easy to adjust, but one long chain was not such a good idea. Makes you wonder why they continued with that engine except for hood clearance and inertia.

 

Easy. That POS engine was designed by a member of the Agnelli family for his engineering degree. Its sacred. The hood clearance issue is false. Space wise the motors are interchangeable. Been done.

 

Brian- Makes sense, but they sure put their money on the wrong horse, then had to reinvent the wheel with the 456 Type F116 engine.