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"Tipo-A" Daytonas?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by opus10583, Feb 28, 2007.

  1. opus10583

    opus10583 Formula 3

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    Anyone have any figures for how many hot, "type-A" engine (is that even the proper terminology), Daytonas were produced?

    TIA
     
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  3. El Wayne

    El Wayne F1 World Champ
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    http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/250642.html?1053184811
     
  4. opus10583

    opus10583 Formula 3

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  5. El Wayne

    El Wayne F1 World Champ
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    Not likely that you would have found it on your own. I remembered that particular thread and did a search on the old board.
     
  6. shill288

    shill288 Formula Junior

    Feb 24, 2005
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    Supposedly some Type A cars had 9.3 compression ratio if you believe Gerald's book. A build sheet would settle it. I have a Type A, a Plexiglass Euro, USA cars, etc. Yup, the compression is higher in those than my USA cars. Not sure if this by luck, design, someone modify the car, whatever?

    On the comment about it's not in the spare parts book, there are lots of Daytona items not in the spare parts book. There are 11 different gas tanks for Daytonas. Anyone ever see all of them listed in the spare parts book? (Not the books by T.Rutlands, Ferrari UK, etc. have written all the extra part numbers in, but an original Ferrari one?) I have factory NOS P6 cams for the Daytona, I don't remember seeing that in my spare parts books either. You could fill pages with the different items not listed in the spare parts book.

    Steve
     
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  8. opus10583

    opus10583 Formula 3

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    Grazie!
     
  9. Simon^2

    Simon^2 F1 World Champ
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    I would like to learn about Daytona's. What is considered the "best" book?
     
  10. sjvalin

    sjvalin Formula Junior

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    Keith Bleumel's Original V12 book has a lot of details on the Daytona and other 60's V12's. My favorite Daytona book is Gerald Roush's out of print book. I bought mine through FML, but they can be found elsewhere, too.

    -steve
     
  11. El Wayne

    El Wayne F1 World Champ
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    .
     
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  13. Simon^2

    Simon^2 F1 World Champ
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    Thank you!
     
  14. Ferrari_250tdf

    Ferrari_250tdf Formula Junior

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    RM offers a new theory about the Tipo-A Daytonas

    "... and the rare stiffer Type A European chassis, as confirmed by the serial plate stamp."

    Best

    Matthias
     
  15. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Rookie
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    what does the letter A stamped on windshields mean?
    ed
     
  16. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
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    I too have heard that the Tipo A designation found on some of later production Euro-spec. 365 GTB/4 Berlinettas denotes the use of the stronger and stiffer 365 GTS/4 Spider chassis.
     
  17. IanB

    IanB F1 World Champ
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    It's very easy to pick a spyder chassis because of the 2" thick A-posts.

    All the Daytona coupes in Australia are Tipo A UK cars, none have a spyder chassis.

    Euro cars are 9.3:1 compression, USA cars 8.8:1. That and the different headers would result in slightly more power (10hp?) for euro cars. No doubt someone like Carobu Engineering could give a definitive answer. Cams are identical btw - I bought a used set for my car from the US and compared to original euro cams.
     
  18. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan F1 Rookie

    Oct 18, 2003
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    I've wondered about the Tipo A designation many times (my car 16763 is one) and have never seen a complete definitive answer probably not helped by mis-information from dealers and auction houses trying to big up cars so designated.

    Maybe someone at Ferrari in the early seventies had a crystal ball and foresaw that in the future enthusiasts and historians would sit at computers for hours discussing old Ferraris and thought they would have a joke with us :)
     
  19. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
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    Marcel, chime in here.
     
  20. Wheels1

    Wheels1 F1 Rookie
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    Posted by 212Export
    Daytona "A" ; Facts versus wishful thinking

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dear friends

    I've called Marcel Massini to have a "final" answer about all those "noises" occuring from every potential dealer/seller regarding the Daytona "A" suffix since several years.
    He sent me the prepared comment which will answer most of the questions arising regarding the "A" suffix. I also have to admit that the information given to me is much more detailed I ever expected and by way much more than the answers provided in Gerald Roush's book "Daytona". I would like to thank Marcel's for his kind permission to publish his comment here!:

    Ferrari 365 GTB/4 and 365 GTB/4A

    In the beginning there were only Euro model 365 GTB/4.

    So for the first series of Euro cars, as per the Italian homologation papers for the 365 GTB/4 the early Euro model 365 GTB/4 was homologated by the Ministero dei Transporti del Aviazone Civile - Direzione Generale Motorizzazione M.C.T.C on Nov. 3, 1969, with certificate 7230 OM. According to this document the stamping is 365 GTB/4 *00000* with the addition of DGM 7230 OM (DGM = Direzione Generale Motorizzazione).

    And then we go on to Euro model pop-up light cars starting on June 19, 1971 there was an addition to this homologation (for European cars) concerning the pop-up lights and the single reverse light. These Daytona's are named 365 GTB/4-A and the homologation starts with chassis #14175 (Rosso Rubino 106-R-12, leather Rosso 101. Assembly sequence #451, factory completion date 26th February 1971). Accordingly the stamping is 365 GTB/4-A *00000* DGM 7230 OM.

    The last page of this document is the "Dichiarazione di Conformita" with which Ferrari confirms that the vehicle is homologated with the Certificate 7230 OM and they list the type and series (tipo e serie) as 365/GTB4 (x).

    So... a Euro car with pop-up headlights and a centered back up light, that's it!

    So all Euro cars up to s/n 14175 were covered headlights when new.

    All Euro cars starting with s/n 14175 have pop-up lights and two reverse lights under the rear bumpers. Only the US version had a single centred back-up light.

    No different cams, no different carbs, no different rear gears, no more power, NOTHING!

    And then we have the USA cars starting with s/n 13361 which was the prototype USA version Daytona, and therefore had pop-up lights.

    S/n 13893 was the first production USA version Daytona, so pop-up headlights as all USA Daytona's had pop-up headlights.

    The "A" cars and indeed all Euro cars have about 15hp - 25 hp more than a US Daytona, because the US Daytona has a smaller inside diameter (and very restrictive) exhaust header.

    The US version had heads 1 mm. higher than the european version, so a slightly different compression ratio.
     
  21. garybobileff

    garybobileff Formula Junior
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    Many years ago, I went with Jacques Swaters to the Factory to meet Dr. Manacardi. I will never forget that one of the questions I asked him was in fact about the "mystery" about the type A Daytona's. There was an article in Road and Track that stated that normal Daytona's had 352 HP, and that the type A cars were 402 HP. Manacardi told me that the difference was the heavier, thicker chassis of the Spyder that was used in the type A. Out of the 4-5 type A engines that I have rebuilt over the years, I have yet to see the Road and Track's extra 50 HP, and where it might have come from. But the type A cars flex much less, when you place the car on a lift, as compared to regular Daytona's.
    Gary Bobileff
     
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  22. hg

    hg Formula Junior
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    #19 hg, Aug 5, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2012
    While the first brochure no. 25/68 stated a compression of 9.3 to 1, the later one no. 73/72 was corrected to 8.8 to 1. All internal engine part numbers are the same for the euro and us.
     
  23. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
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    Here are four on offer, ABEbooks dot com is an excellent source for rare books though the sellers are a bit...ambitious with their asking prices. You will find that they don't budge.

    http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=gerald+roush&kn=THE+FERRARI+365+GTB%2F4+DAYTONA

    Twenty years ago when I was in south Florida I did some brokerage and the very first exchange I ever had with Gerald was when I advertised in FML a Daytona owned by an Italian industrialist living near Boca Raton (don't remember the chassis number) which was a Type A. I had an irate fax from Mr G -all too used to scoundrels and misrepresentation- about type A's and responded: "Dear Mr Roush my heart is not in the brokerage (which it really wasn't and never has been) please write what you wish in my ad" We never had a problem after that:)

    MS
     
  24. Zarathustra

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  25. Zarathustra

    Zarathustra Formula Junior
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    Jim Weed had an excellent article in the Ferrari Market Letter entitled, "Sleuthing out the elusive Type-A Daytona."
    But he comes to the same conclusion ... and I quote:

    "What is a Type-A Daytona?
    A Type-A Daytona is nothing more than a European model with pop-up headlights. How do we know?
    The first evidence is in the parts manual. There are no special engine parts that are designated for special cars. Engine performance is related to a few factors. Pistons, valves, and camshafts all carry the same part numbers regardless of U.S. or European specification.
    There is also nothing in the suspension or shock absorbers that would indicate any difference between U.S. and European models.
    Today, enough Daytonas have had complete restorations and no one has been able to identify any component or differences in the frame or body that is different.

    Why the -A designation?

    Manufacturers must ‘homologate’ their product to provide conformity with applicable laws and standards. The original homologation papers for the 365 GTB/4 were submitted with this statement: “The construction of the model described in this sheet began on February 1, 1969, and the minimum set of 25 identical specimens conforming to the characteristics shown here, was reached on May 15, 1969. Type approval valid since January 6, 1969.” The serial number identified as the first one is S/N 11795. This chassis number is identified as the third prototype and embodies all the features of the production cars to follow.
    Another homologation paper has a note: updated on June 19, 1971. This paper shows updates to the brake system and exhaust for noise restrictions. It also has a page of the original light characteristics showing the various types of lights and positions located on the body."

    Jim goes on to outline the lighting differences.
    So perhaps 14521 is a USA odd-ball Type-A.

    Has anyone discovered anything new and more informative on the "Elusive Type-A"?
     
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  26. TTR

    TTR F1 Rookie
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    I just took a quick look at my reference library based personal hands-on experiences with and photo-documentation of actual cars (including VINs, originally intended markets, construction variations, etc) and so far, it seems (at least to me) that none of the previously offered conclusions/explanations are absolute or accurate.
    Too many anomalies/discrepancies can be found, but then again, based on my limited experience with the model, they probably have far more than I'll be able to ever figure out, even if I had all at my disposal in a single location and as long as needed.
     
  27. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Rookie
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    not type-A specifically, but euro cars do have different items such as carbs and exhaust mufflers and headers. maybe distributors curves also.
    l think people confused type-A designation with european specification.
     
  28. TTR

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    I'm not sure Tipo "A" is as much engine or performance related than construction/structural differences, which, for example, (based on my observations) just U.S.-market Berlinettas seemed to have had at least 2 or 3 (maybe more ?) significant changes of throughout their production.
    My in-depth studies of Euro- or RH-market cars aren't as extensive, but they too seem to have had fair amount of changes throughout their production timelines and apparently not all correlate with those of U.S.-market examples, either technically or timeline-wise.
     

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