To modify or not This seems to come up all the time as a sideline in other threads but never seems to get the full discussion it deserves so I thought I would start a thread so we can beat it to death. I have modified just about everything there is to modify over the years in fact its basically been a big part of my job for the last 10 years, Im a product development engineer. The first question that always comes up is can we modify what we have or do we need to start over? When it comes to cars, it can be a tough decision. It is always cheaper to leave a perfectly good car alone and drive it than it is the mess with it. And any car that is remotely collectable is always worth more money in OEM condition than if it has been modified, there are very few exceptions. If money is the primary concern, the car should be left stock, service it as required. Repairs can be another story. A Ferrari that has been abused generally costs more to repair than the car is really worth, better to sell it as is and buy a good one that doesnt need to be repaired. We all know that I guess. The water gets a bit muddy when you love the car, but there is something about it that bothers you. Generally, the cheapest thing to do is buy a car with the modifications you want if you can find it. It will be below stock price and you like it better, what more could you want? The problem is that the odds of finding a car with the mods you want are pretty low, youll probably have to do it yourself, so it will cost you and only you can decide if it is worth the money. Once you decide to modify, the question is how far do you go? Modifications fall in 2 groups, bolt-on or permanent. If it is a bolt-on, you can bolt it off when its time to sell and you are only out the price to the parts. If it is a permanent mod you will be out the price of the parts and the car will be depreciated as well. The last thing to think about is maintenance or repair. It is pretty hard to find good shops to work on stock Ferraris, its way harder to find one to work on a modified one. If you cant do the work yourself and dont live near a Ferrari speed shop, you might want to stick to pretty simple bolt-on stuff. Also repairs can be a problem with any mod. If you put on custom wheels then ding one a couple years later, after the maker has dropped the style you need to replace all 4. Or you break down because your fancy aftermarket programmable ECU fried, how do you fix it? Even if you can get a new ECU (assuming they still make the model you bought and you dont have to re-wire the car.), shipped to where you need it still needs to be programmed. It can really be a problem and a good argument to just leave the car stock. Thats all the bad stuff I can think of and should be enough to help most people decide to just leave their car alone .but for the rest of us that love working on our cars and clearly dont have the sense god gave a garden slug there is a lot of fun to be had. Whether its just enjoying the way the car looks with a custom set of wheels or the rush extra hp can bring, to me there is an almost indescribable amount of satisfaction in just doing the project. If that is what you are looking for, a modified car might be for you
Great post and great thread, I hope you know we all appreciate you sharing your experience with us. Personally I am first intrigued with upgrades which as you mentioned are closer to stock. That's why I'd like to hear from anyone with experience upgrading the 328 EFI to the newer CFI or whatever it's called. Similarily, if anyone can comment whether a 15-25hp increase will really be felt seat-of-the-pants. Best! Wes
I can see you put some time and effort into your post. I can also see that your are concerned and totally legitimate. In my car, I had an engine compartment fire. Since it could not longer be called 'all original', I decided to do some mods. They are not too extreme as far as having to replace them, with the exception of the DIS ignition should i ever have probelems with it. The rest are parts that I shouldn't really have problems with it. You can review my car and its mods here: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45048 Trust me, it wasn't cheap doing some of the mods. I haven't even driven the car yet to tell you if it was worth the price difference. I guess I will let you know when my project is completed.
Well, I am in the modify camp. Only because I bought an 83 308gtsi that had been a little unloved. The usual stuff needed to be replaced like rubber products, shocks, tires, and the belts. As most know those small things on a Ferrari can add up quick. Since I do not plan on selling my car, entering any car shows, and I had to replace a lot of stuff anyway, I wanted my 308 to be the best I think it can be and YES the 308 can be improved upon for performance purposes. Improved suspension, wheels(I had 390), Bushings, exhaust, and hopefully efi some day. Now I do all of this knowing full well that if I do decide to sell my car I will get what ever the market will bear. No harm no foul. My 308 is not special among the 308 series if it was I would think differently. I do however try and keep the look of the car Ferrari!!! Sorry no spinners! Although purple haze paint is the rage I hear! One thing I have noticed while reading this forum for over 2 years is that many people think first of investment rather than the enjoyment of the car. I really could care less if my car does not go up in value. Great if it does. It will be the first! After the BJ auction who knows?
If it were up to me I'd rather have a 308GTSi that had an aftermarket injection system on it rather than the stock one that came with the car. We all know that was a quick compromise the factory made along with air pumps to meet new air standards. Just keep the stock system in a box to go along with the car, thank you. I guess I'd say it would be getting the car to run as the factory would have liked it to have run. Meeting polution/air standards and still getting the most out of the engine. Now if it were a carbureted 308 or QV I'd say I'd want to leave it alone. That probably doesn't make any sense to most people thats just me.
The rule of thumb is that you will feel 10%, much less and you need to measure to see it. I converted my QV to EFI (when adding the supercharger) and the most noticable change (after a lot of tuning time) was that before the car surged when driven below 2000 rpm, after the conversion I couled just easy the throttle out at idle and the car would pull away smoothly. May it just needed service, I don't know, but it was/is much better after the conversion.
It was an engine fire that pushed me to change as well. I had to pull the engine to clean up the engine bay after the fire and it needed gaskets anyway so it seemed like a good time....and as long as it was coming out and had a cylinder that was a bit low on leakdown I decided to rebuild....and as long as I was rebuilding it seem like a waste to not supercharge....and that called for EFI....and it need new distributor caps that are pretty expensive so it got DIS....and the shocks didn't look to good ....and witht he smaller OD springs bigger wheels would fit..... It's called goal creep. The final project was nothing like what I set out to do, it's all stuff I love and would never go back, but it's a lot of changing. I think the one main thing that often gets forgotten is that when you start modifying you are second guessing the engineers that designed it....we all like to believe we are smarter than the rest of the world, but that is often not true and the modification can have very unexpected results. And I think that is a big part of the reason many people don't like modified cars...they trend not to be as well developed as stock and suffer from quirks, not always but often enough. It generally takes me a bout 2 years to get all the bugs out of a car after a big project....and as I said, I do development for a living. I think everybody should hotrod something at least once in there lives, but it's important not to go in to it all stary-eyed and be reasonable about the goal and honest with yourself about your skills and experience. If you do that, you will have a successful project, if not you will most likely be selling it "as is"
I'd expand on Mark's "bolt-on vs permanent" approach with "good vs bad" too. No one is (rightly) ever going to "reverse" that yummy Blackhorse 308/355, and I'd agree with Charles that a "better" EFI installed in a manner that looks appropriate (like a factory installation rather than an obvious aftermarket molestation) on a 308i would be plus. Another example that I had mentioned before is that 355 taillight set-up on the 348 -- risk free IMO with actual $ value added. I guess the tricky part is knowing "good" from "bad"
I consider that certain mods are "within the range of acceptability" and others aren't. Obviously, this is personal choice, but my guess there would be some consensus as to what is acceptable and what isn't. An "original car" to the extent that is possible is very nice and I am glad to see a strong following of this concept as it keeps the heritage of the cars in proper perspective. If your end game is lasting value, this is no doubt the proper course. If you prefer maximizing the performance potential and visual appeal of your car, this is where it gets interesting. One persons "sweet" is another's "oh my god". So anyway here's my 308 Do's and Don'ts list - not that anyone cares, and all in good fun I hope! 1. Do upgrade to 16" wheels (if necessary), but stay original for the series 2. Don't put the bling of the week rim on your car 3. Do low profile performance tires 4. Don't do super low profile tires and 80 inch rims - these are not performance and have the centrifugal resistance of a cow on a rope. 5. Do repaint it and change to a series appropriate color if you want. 6. Don't have cousin Eddy do your repaint. 7. Do maximize the basic performance of your 3 litre 8 cylinder 8. Don't think your $10,000 engine performance package will be worth it. 9. Do put euro bumpers on for the sake of weight loss. 10. Don't hit anything bigger than a grocery cart with your euro bumpers. 11. Do your scheduled maintenance. 12. Don't think that every Ferrari mechanic knows what they are doing. 13. Do upgrade your brakes and suspension 14. Don't tell the purists you did. 15. Do buy a car advertised as rust free 16. Don't look under the car you just bought. 17. Do buy a car advertised as all original - it may be close. 18. Don't sell a car advertised as all original - its not. No, not even that one. 19. Do go to sites like Ferrarichat for good advice. 20. Don't listen to people like me.
Mike, As a point of perspective, your post has been way long overdue. We, all of us, think about this every day, a bit bigger tire, that exhaust, p-6 cams, Low velocity stacks.... Allmost Everyone is considering some deviation from stock, standard parts, either for reasons of economy, appearance or performance. You can get as involved as you like in an old volks, making a hotrod out of it, it is a fairly simple vehicle, (comparatively), and the costs of failure are small. As with any endeavor, if you seek to really being it to the state of the art...it will cost big. A FERRARI, a bit more so. Within the scope of modification from stock, there are, as usual, a range of modifications or tasks, some that are quite simple, like changing the headlights to halogen - a simple improvement in technology, (assuming the same wattage), to the relative extreme of 4 liter engines or custom engineered & fabricated 500+ hp supercharged engines. From the outset, it is important to have a goal and to, hopefully, have a sense of magnitude of change. It is equally important to know the impact on other systems. The true understanding of what will happen is often lost by one's belief in Vaporware, (advertising hype), or simple ignorance of the engineering/physics involved, (been there, might still be doing that )). And just to essentially nulify my foregoing comments, i gotta say that as you go along, your understand of what is going on and your goals will change--- coool, that's life. My meager insights, go for quality, look one or two steps ahead and read. As I was installing aeorquip hoses, Mazda oil coolers and 911S brakes on my 914 at the cad garage where i used to work, My old boss, a sage old classy dude with two Bentleys used to come out and say "stock is best". In my heart of hearts, I knew that the bigger discs, cross drilling, aluminum calipers with bigger pistons could not fail to give me better braking..Right?? It worked out great, but, what about maintenance parts, clearance to wheels, front/rear balace, resale value, ..I Now know, there was a lot I didn't know. We do the best we can, strive to be better, with the limited understanding that we have. Sh-t, study and go for it. The upside is that you are going to learn a lot and have a lot of fun along the way. For sure Stock will have a better resale value. You can have fun doing that. But, If you want to go faster, or make the car more fitted to you, or bring the old car up to date for maintenance simplification/cost, (eg poly bushings, pointless ignition, CD player.....), do a bit of study and go for it. But hey, I am an old car guy - and love it! chris
Purely from a technical standpoint I have the belief that the engineers knew what they were doing when they designed my car but I also realize that for one reason or another the engineer was constrained in his design by the parameters of the proposed model. It shows in some of the stupid and sensless design flaws I have found in my 308. The engineering was constricted because of it's intended use, intended market attraction, restricted dimensional requirements, restricted engine type and/or size and the biggest of all, BUDGET! It's all about the money. Is stock always better? Not always. With any design there are compromises and with compromises there is room for improvement. Design and build it just good enough so it is cheap to produce. With that said, I am a firm believer that a design can and should be improved upon when it is PRACTICAL. The preceeding is without regard to considerations of originality and resale. If the car is a sacked out, half burned 308 why the h*ll not! Make mine with a Lysolm supercharger and EFI, heavy on the gear box.......................................................
The lambda loop on the CIS was known for "surging" at cruise. It annoys the heck out of me on the 328. Being both an engineer and an old fogie who lived through that era, I'm aware that the rush to Bosch systems for US models was driven by the frequently changing and often arbitrary emissions standards that EPA was imposing on cars at the time. It wasn't a matter of what was best -- it was a matter of what would get "government approval". (Working in today's defense industry, I have the same issue: It kills me to try to slug along with an "officially approved" piece of junk when I could plunk in a Linux box that would do the job faster and cheaper -- but would drive the Department of Second-Guessing Everybody into cardiac arrest.) (Oops, I'm venting again -- it's been a bad week.) Anyway, the CIS wasn't a bad system. The reliability is (or was) pretty good. But they're getting long in the tooth, and like most early Bosch systems, there are absolutely no internal diagnostics. You have to check everything bit by bit by bit. (Good MTBF, horrible MTTR.) And you can't get replacement Marelli ignition computers anymore either. This is where I've been dithering for a while, now. I know right well we can do much much better than the Marelli computer. (When that thing was designed, the average desktop computer was an 8088 or a Lisa.) But if I design my own aftermarket EFI computer, I can include internal diagnostics. (Something that most aftermarket systems don't include -- being generic designs.) But I'd be the only one who could fix the computer itself. (Fault tolerant computers can get you home, but you need spares.) But the CIS systems have been so reliable that most F-car mechanics don't have much experience fixing them ... so far. Webbers, yes. CIS: ("They never go wrong". -- Quote from two different F-car mechanics.) And there are no "serviceable" parts inside a Marelli box for the mechanic to fix. Having had three different good-reputation shops return my running-like-cr*p 328 telling me that they can't find anything wrong, I'm wondering if it's worth trying to keep a system that the shops can't fix, either. (Granted, even a good 328 will seem sluggish next to an Enzo or 575, but when the throttle response is this bad, you'd think the mechanic would figure that something is wrong.) At this point, I'm on the brink of trying to design my own, self-diagnosing EFI for the 3x8 series. (Blatantly stealing diagnostic ideas from the TCCS system I had on my Celica GT-Four, such as the flyback monitor on the ignition coil to check ignition fire effectiveness.) This isn't a concours car, it's a "driver" -- or was, and will be again, one way or the other. Besides: that big barn door in the intake just looks wrong. (This could be dangerous: Ferrari performance with Toyota reliability: The Universe might implode. )
LOL! i vote mod! Technology has moved forward... And now some humor: As the owner of an Italian vehicle, you have undoubtedly found that, from time to time, the thing defies all known laws of Physics. Distinguished researchers from all over the world have spent entire lives trying to understand such phenomena. Recently, the Six Laws of Italian Sports Cars were discovered, thus reducing most owners' dependency on sorcerers and prayer, to keep such cars running. Careless application of these laws to any individual auto may fix the problems of the moment, but cause hives or allergies in said owners. 1) THE LAW OF PLEASING DESIGN WHERE IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER "The inside of cam covers or other relatively innocuous areas, shall be laced with buttresses, cross-bracing and all manner of esoteric stiffness-with-lightness design, while something like connecting rods shall self-destruct at redline plus 1.0 rpm due to a basic lack of strength." An example of this Law is the stunningly beautiful Lamborghini or Ferrari V-12's of the late '60's. They were famous for wearing out all four camshafts in 10,000 miles or less. The cam's metal appeared to be recycled coat hangers, which coincidentally are still in short supply in Italy. 2) THE LAW OF NON-FUNCTIONAL APPARATUS "All Italian Sports Cars, regardless of age, shall have at least one system or component which does not work, and cannot be repaired. Such a part shall never be mentioned in the Official Shop Manual, although there may be an out-of-focus picture shown." It goes without saying that such parts should never under any circumstances be removed, lest the natural balance of the car be upset. 3)THE LAW OF ELECTRICAL CHAOS "All Italian Sports Cars shall be wired at the Factory by a cross-eyed, color-blind worker, using whatever supplies are within reach. All wires shall change color-code at least once between energy source and component. all grounds shall be partially insulated." This tends to guarantee that the owner of such vehicles will eventually be intimately familiar with its electrical system, since he will need to trace out each wire, then rewrite his Official Schematic, which will differ from all others in at least one area. 4)THE LAW OF PERSONAL ABUSE "The more an Italian auto breaks down, the more endearing it becomes to its increasingly irrational owner." For example, you purchase an Italian Sports car, for all the money you ever hoped to earn, and receive a ticket for air pollution on the way home from the dealer due to the vast clouds of smoke that follow you. Several return trips to said dealer, accompanied by your rapidly dwindling cash reserves, cures the smoking. But now, the engine sounds like a food processor full of ball-bearings. After replacing every component in the car, including the radio speakers, the noise vanishes and is replaced by an odor reminiscent of a major fire in a goat-hair mattress factory. You still keep trying, God help you. 5)THE LAW OF UNAVAILABLE PARTS "All parts of an Italian sports car shall be made of a material that is available in inverse proportion to its operating half-life." Thus, the speedometer hold-down screws are made of grade 8 cold rolled steel, while the valves are of fabricated Unobtanium, made only at midnight by an old man with a pointy hat covered with moons and stars. Such parts will be backordered during the design phase of the car, and will remain so forever. Bribes, pleading and threats will be ignored. 6)THE LAW OF CRYPTIC INSTRUCTIONS "Any official publications dealing with repair, maintenance or operations of an Italian sports car, shall be written such that every fourth word is incomprehensible to the average American. In the event that a random sentence is understandable, its information shall be wrong." This is also known as flat-tire English, where a sentence flows along nicely, then-Kaboom!
I'm completely against modifying Ferraris You should leave in the same engine oil as wehn it left the factory as well as same brake pads, timing belts, & brake fluid. Then when you cant drive it anymore you have to turn it into a garage queen LOL Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Steve,If Italian sport cars are so bad then why did you buy one?And why do most people on this board either own one or would like to?And why are Italian motoring machines so desired by most people?Ferrari,Lamborghini,Maserati,Zonda,Alfa Romeo,Ducatti,Apprillia,Moto Guzzi.Which other nation in the world has so many different desired motor vehicles?The Italians must be doing something right somewhere.
Maurice, It was HUMOR. As for why we desire/have an Italian vehicle... i plead insanity What's your excuse?
I find it interesting that there are several common mods that are not even usually considered modifications, such as installing a Tubi. The argument from the non-mod camp is usually that highly-trained engineers are better at determining needs than hot rodders, and yet the exhaust is considered fair game by everyone. As a hot rodder and modifier from way back (bowtie Chevies, street rods, and muscle trucks), the hands-off approach to Fcars has always amused me. Granted, making a mistake with these cars tends to cost $$$, but don't think for a moment that a 308/328/etc is a more expensive car than some of the hot rods running around. The biggest problem facing the mod crowd is that there's simply not the knowledgebase in place that other marques have generated, so there's not really a "safe" list of modifications. Everyone in the tuner world knows that to make a 2nd gen MR2 fast, you do X, Y, Z. To make a 300ZXTT fast, you do X, Y, Z. To make a 308 fast, you do ermmmmm....... There's no kits, no how-tos, nothing. So the modifier is on his/her own, trying to extrapolate from other makes what might work on the Ferrari. If the modifer doesn't have the technical skills to do the work, then they are paying $90+/hour for someone to experiment on their car. To add to the insult, the prices automagically triple for Ferrari cars. Want to turbo it? 20K. Why? Because that's what it costs, because Ferrari owners can afford it. The exact same kit on any other V8 would run half or less. Another factor is the "why?" factor. Every time someone comes up with a performance mod for a model, the community simply dismisses it with the "just move up" argument. That doesn't fly for the ones that love the styling or handling or whatever about their car. Personally, I love the looks of the 328. The 348 does nothing for me, the 430 is hideous. What I want is a 328 that can keep up with modern cars. Is that so hard to understand? Steve wants a 308 that can outhandle modern cars. Is that a negative thing? Mark wants to rotate the world 1/4 mile if he feels like it The last element is the tinker element. I like to tinker. I've always liked taking cars apart and putting them back together a little differently. I've done this since my first car (1967 Valiant w/273 v8), through my cheap sports cars (Fiat X1/9), my classics (57 Chevy Belaire), and my trucks (360 powered Dodge Ram). Why should I stop simply because there's a Cavallino on the hood?
ROTFL! Now that's about the funniest thing I've heard in a long time! After rewriting the electrical schematic for my driver's door harness twice and having become intimately familiar with my power window ECD printed cirucuit card and relay design, I'd have to go with the Law of Electrical Chaos as my favorite/most hated law! Great post!
I would not really say that turbo kits cost twice as much as if they would regulary. I have a 3rd Gen Eclipse turbo kit (as the car has been shunned by the aftermarket community) that costs $3200. And the F355 kit begins at $36000. Reasoning? Materials used and quality. The standalone ECU by itself costs $8000, and the turbo's cost $4500 as well. Not to mention the powdercoating, pre-tuning, etc. Simply stated, quality costs money. And there is no better quality than Italian.
Tillman, Excellent post! And yes, i truly wish there were more 'bolt on' solutions and 'known good' paths. it seems only within the last few years (and in part due to Fchat) are we able to compare notes and resources.
To me it makes a hell of a lot more sense to modify a $30G Ferrari than it does to modify a unibody $30G Toyota, Chevy, Ford, Honda, etc. It seems to me that no matter what you do, as long as it is done professionally and tastefully the 308 is still gonna be worth around $30G. You'll never get the money you put in out of it again, but that is the polar opposite of the point of why you are doing modifications. It's a good starting point too, steel tube frame, not too big, but big enough for a V8 (or 12), double wishbones. For the same price off one 355 you can have a wild 308 and a beater 308 to drive everyday. And despite all the naysaying about impossibility of parts, etc. I have yet to have a problem, although WWoC wanting $450 for a head gasket is ridiculous. I for one have a lot more confidence in most of the modifications than I do in the stock systems. There is stuff that Ferrari hit the nail on the head , and there are other things that they just really missed, etc. The things they nailed though is generally the meat and potatos of a car (main bearings, crank, block, trans, frame, suspension geometry, steering, etc.). Even when people "wildy" modify them they rarely get into these elements, and rather tend towards the ancilliary aspects like cams, stiffer shocks/springs, aluminum radiators which could all be changed back if you folded to the OEM crowd. I just don't get the OEM thing for what amounts to a high price tuner car, if I had a 360CS I'd be first in line trying to fit a screw type to it and trying to make an Enzo beater, but it appears I'm around $250k short of taking on a project like that. Would you rather a 700hp CS, or a 500hp 430 that you are keeping your CS stock for so you can trade it in when its your turn on the 430 list. When you see a car like Mark or Paul has it is like a breathe of fresh air.
That strikes a chord with me. The known and well trodden good path I took was from our Porsche 911 buds: the bolt-on replacement of the K-jetronic injection with Webers, and am now doing cams to match (see other thread). FChat is great for development sharing, even with 'Back to the Future' retrofits like Webers. Best to all
