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Top Gear 918 vs. La Ferrari vs. P1

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by nsx2F355, Feb 24, 2015.

  1. nsx2F355

    nsx2F355 Formula Junior
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    If you get caught, sorry
     
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  3. Coincid

    Coincid F1 Rookie

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    If you read about a prestige car manufacturer who has created what is supposed to be a breakthrough in automotive development and sells for almost 1.5 million U.S. dollars and in order to have the privilege of owning one required an application and only once the car company deemed you worthy would they accept your money.

    Then when a very well known automotive television series requests the car for testing against two other hyper cars, the company refuses. It will only allow the car to be tested if it comes directly from their facility and adamantly will not permit a production car to be evaluated. When the television hosts suggest having a current owner of the vehicle loan the car for the test,the manufacturer, threatens any owner with permanent banning of ever being offered a limited edition model.

    What are the implications to be drawn from this manufacturer's conduct? Firstly, it is abundantly clear it has no confidence that their car in stock form is good enough to win the test. Consequently, a highly modified, upgraded version is required in order to compete adequately. And these upgrades will be covertly installed with the impression fraudulently conveyed that the car is in purely stock form. Therefore $1.4 million is not sufficient to best a competing vehicle that sells for almost $600000 less. The car still requires upgrades at an undetermined cost to be competitive.

    For those who have been loyal customers of this brand over the years spending perhaps millions of dollars on purchases, how is their patronage rewarded? By issueing threats to never permit them to be able to spend many millions on future limited edition models.

    What would you think of this car maker?
     
  4. 1slocrx

    1slocrx Karting

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    Coincid, I completely agree with your viewpoint. Furthermore this is coming from a Ferrari owner and lover (California). Thats why I have a 918 coming soon.
     
  5. Coincid

    Coincid F1 Rookie

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    Good for you. Congrats. I am sure you will be thrilled with the 918.
     
  6. SCEye

    SCEye F1 Rookie

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    not sure how that statement was moronic. explanation?
     
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  8. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

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    Not
     
  9. Coincid

    Coincid F1 Rookie

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    He clearly has no explanation after 2 requests to explain. The only thing moronic is his response to the previous post.
     
  10. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
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    Many customer F cars have exceeded the manufacturer's claims. Stipulating that Ferrari indulges in cheating as their modus operandi is moronic.
     
  11. Coincid

    Coincid F1 Rookie

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    The posts on this thread deal exclusively with Ferrari's conduct pursuant to the events surrounding LaFerrari and Top Gear. There is no discussion about other models. And the facts of this case do not make Ferrari look good no matter how hard you may try to put a positive spin on them. If you are too blind or biased to acknowledge their nefarious behaviour, that is your perogative.
     
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  13. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    If they really said they'd ban the owners from getting new Ferraris, that's pretty pathetic.
     
  14. Coincid

    Coincid F1 Rookie

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    They did.Not on any new model. The ban applies to limited edition models.
     
  15. HoboPie

    HoboPie Karting

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    While I don't agree with him overall I think his point would be that if we aren't discussing other models then you made some pretty serious assumptions. They aren't outrageous assumptions, but you've drawn a straight line from factory car to a certainty of a heavily modified vehicle.

    If we aren't discussing other models then we certainly can throw out examples of Ferrari customer cars out performing expectations, but then we need to throw out any possible examples where factory versions seem to be a step above customer cars. A certain 360 test comes to mind on that one. What nefarious behaviour can we talk about if we are only discussing LaFerrari tests? Suspicious in the case of TG maybe, but Nefarious?

    What I see does not look good for Ferrari, but it's also been there MO for the longest time now. In my opinion it does not point to outright fear, just a complete unwillingness to give up control.

    I think we need to look at other models. Take the Enzo for example, it had very similar restrictions and yet it did very well in the tests that finally happened. The ring test in particular was a surprise. Even on top gear the customer car was significantly faster than it's rivals at the time(cgt and slr). Customer cars also performed almost exactly on par with the tests done at Fiorano on a downhill track. The circumstances were controlled, but there is little evidence those cars any better than customer cars when you look at subsequent customer tests.

    And we have already heard very positive resports on the Laferrari from a subjective point of view, but also while it's still to be substantiated(like half of the stuff related to these cars) the Laferrari was reportedly faster than both at anglesy in customer form on stock tires(I believe the others were factory efforts).

    So while there is nothing moronic about feeling that Ferrari might be concerned about the performance of their car, evidence would indicate that it's more complex than a simple certainty that Ferrari knows their car cannot compete so they will only enter a competition if they can provide a ringer.

    I would even go as far as to point a finger at Top Gear. Not because they are nefarious, but they are an entertainment program. We have plenty of evidence that they will stage something to maximize interest and that are far from thorough when it comes to providing a level playing field in their track tests. A lack of effort when it comes to the condition of tires, brakes and the track itself are fairly common.

    My personal reaction would not have been the same as Ferrari's, but I also personally would not have great confidence in Top Gear putting the kind of thought that Bovingdon and Evo did. While they took a while getting there, they did provide disclosure on the circumstances of the test and demonstrated an awareness of the condition of the cars, the track etc...

    This is par for the course for Evo, Autocar, SportAuto certainly, and a few others. I do not see that with Top Gear as much as I love the show.
     
  16. kingjr9000

    kingjr9000 Formula 3

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    We need ferrari owners to tests their cars to see if they match up with what ferrari claims, and that includes dynos. But I do remember seeing a dyno of an f12 and it was cranking out about as much as ferrari said. Although oddly, the 458 dyno videos that I see always have the 458 around 450hp. Wonder why...
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  17. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    king, if it's not an engine dyno then it's pretty much meaningless by itself. Dynos like those are notoriously inaccurate and can be made to say just about anything. The only thing they're really good for is comparative stuff.

    All it takes is a few percent difference in tolerances, errors in drivetrain estimates and set-up to drastically throw off numbers when dealing with such high powered cars.
     
  18. s-mario

    s-mario Karting

    Jan 17, 2013
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    Very much concur with much of what you have said. Ferrari like to have control over their vehicles when they submit them for comparison tests, nothing new. The same can be said about McLaren, if not more so, how else can the refusal to have the P1 tested at the Dunsfold of all tracks be read? McLaren will already know what the P1 can do around that track and they were everything but confident that it would show the car in the best light. The Evo test at Anglesey is another case in point, McLaren had clearly asked Evo to embargo the lap times until they had returned two months later with stickier tires at the very least to set a new time that suited their agenda better. Now, for argument's sake, if Ferrari had behaved like that, on an Italian track with an Italian magazine as McLaren had done with a UK magazine on a UK track, many bench racers would have screamed 'blue murder' and that a ringer had been used the 2nd time around.

    I also agree with TG being an entertainment show that glosses over how lap times were obtained, the Huayra's relatively recent lap time being a good example as it was obtained with TrofeoRs , not the standard tire for that car. None of that was mentioned by the '3 stooges' and further proof that manufacturers like to control results.

    Pagani Admits They Used Two Sets Of Tires For Top Gear Test
     
  19. Coincid

    Coincid F1 Rookie

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    The discussion here only centers on the LaFerrari and Top Gear. There is no indictment or accusations made about Ferrari's conduct in the past or dealing with any other models. Their ill conceived actions in this instance, which at best are indicative of no confidence in the LaFerrari compounded by horrendous customer relations and at worst, deceit and fraud, speak for themselves. Let's call it what it is and stop being apologists for Ferrari's reprehensible actions which should not be tolerated or excused.
     
  20. Coincid

    Coincid F1 Rookie

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    Attempting to put the blame on Top Gear and shifting responsibility to them instead of Ferrari is tantamount to accusing the woman who is raped because she was dressed provocatively. Let's not blame the victim instead of the perpetrator.
     
  21. s-mario

    s-mario Karting

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    Rape, victim, perpetrator???? Dude, you need to moderate your metaphors, no crime has been committed, no-one was hurt, no law was broken. --- It is up to the manufacturer whether they make a vehicle available to the press or not and other manufacturers have pulled similar stunts with TG here.
     
  22. Coincid

    Coincid F1 Rookie

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    There is fraud committed when a covertly modified car is represented as stock. No obviously it is not on the same level as rape but the concept of shifting blame to the wrong party applies.
     
  23. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

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    There was no modified car. Smoke and mirrors...
     
  24. Coincid

    Coincid F1 Rookie

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    What makes this entire scenario significant is that a car company that has carefully crafted a brand that is identified with an elite image and consumers pay a hefty premium to buy into this concept, is now being exposed for nefarious practices that might have the affect of diminishing the appeal of the brand. It takes decades to build a desired reputation and relatively little time to undermine it. Yes we are taking about super expensive toys. It is not ISIS burning people alive but for those who love high performance cars, seeing a company like Ferrari indulge in unbecoming conduct is disconcerting.
     
  25. Coincid

    Coincid F1 Rookie

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    True a modified car had not yet been sent but the only reasonable inference to be drawn from the fact that Ferrari would not allow a production car to be tested and insisted instead on supplying one from the factory is that they wanted that supplied car to be upgraded in specific ways to ensure a better result in the evaluation.
     
  26. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    Ferrari have ripped off customers for decades (the $3,000 carbon cup holder a particular favourite of mine), sent modified cars to tests, been juvenile towards journalists that criticise them, had quality control issues and had people reporting their downfall for as long as I can remember.

    With all that in mind, how long did it take them to sell out their latest hypercar again?
     
  27. Coincid

    Coincid F1 Rookie

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    So what does that say about Ferrari buyers?
     
  28. 250P

    250P Formula Junior

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    I'd imagine if Ferrari did supply a car for a head to head it's drive train would be closer to FXX K than stock. Likewise Mclaren might be tempted to run GTR spec or close. Who knows.

    A real head to head would need to be with clean off the shelf cars. Saying that a few will be in greater states of tune than others. e.g. Im sure you can get your street P1 with GTR spec tune.
     

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