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torque vs hp for 360 replacement

Discussion in '360/430' started by 95spiderman, Feb 23, 2004.

?

which choice for 360 replacement engine specs?

  1. 475 hp and 300 ft/lbs, 8500 redline

  2. 400 hp and 400 ft/lbs, 7500 redline

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  1. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    Nov 1, 2003
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    i think torque improvement is much more important for next v8 fcar. wondering what everyone else thinks
     
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  3. Jameel

    Jameel Formula Junior

    Nov 4, 2003
    401
    Canada
    I totally agree, Ferrari needs to work on it's torque figures. I know Ferrari's are all about small displacement, high-revving engines. But there comes a time when you have to realize the competition is killing you.

    Plus how often are you going top speed, I'd rather have more brutal acceleration then more HP.
     
  4. enzoz

    enzoz Karting

    Nov 2, 2003
    162
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    Rob
    I think the 360 Modena is all about the emotion of driving and conecting witht he car. It's NOT a supercar and doesn't need to have the best acceleration and top speed. It needs to look fabulous and make the driver feel good when (s)he's behind the wheel. It's an evocative machine.

    Plus, if you want torque Ferrari has two other cars that deliver it in spades... the 575M and 612S... people sometimes forget how fast the Maranello actually is because it's a GT car... and 612 has stight line acceleration that matches the 575M even though it's a 2+2. I can understand the need for a torquey devil with a mid mounted engine and not a million dollar price tag. This is why I think Ferrari better work on the next V12 cars and make on of them mid engined like the Enzo. I think the 360 replacement should be fine. The Gallardo, turbo Audi, Benz, Corvette, all of those, great cars, but still don't have the 'oooh and ahhhs' of the 360 Modena, and IMHO, the F355 for that matter.


    That said, the 360 replacement needs more torque... :D
     
  5. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Your statement is nonsense (sorry). HP is what gives you brutal acceleration. What you mean is you'd rather have strong acceleration without having to downshift (instead of having maximum acceleration when its screaming at 7500 rpm).

    Note that the 400hp 400ft-lb 7500rpm redline implies a car with a torque curve that is not flat... a mere 280 ft-lb by the time you reach 7500rpm. Thus, the car won't be much faster 30-80 than the current 360... as long as you're not too lazy or too uncoordinated to execute a downshift. I think most would find that disappointing. In contrast, the other would be consistently faster than the existing 360.
     
  6. bumboola

    bumboola Formula Junior

    Mar 7, 2003
    625
    I don't want a truck engine in my sports car, I want a sports car engine. Higher horsepower with a higher rpm limit would suit me perfectly. Save the torque for the two ton luxury barges.
     
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  8. bostonmini

    bostonmini Formula 3

    Nov 8, 2003
    1,881
    an increase in torque and HP is necessary, take the current torque curve (which for a 3.6 is excellent) and just put it on stilts...For this to happen, you need more displacement. I believe the rumour giving 4.6 liters would be nice. that should allow for around 350 lb-ft at a reasonable RPM (under 5000).
     
  9. Clax

    Clax Formula 3

    Oct 3, 2002
    1,611
    Neither is acceptable, in my opinion. If those are the figures, I won't be owning one.
     
  10. jim g

    jim g Formula Junior

    Jan 8, 2003
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    525 hp, 425 lbft lets shoot for the next gen. gt2 but with 4.5 to 5 liters and 9000 rpm redline
     
  11. sherpa23

    sherpa23 F1 Veteran
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    May 28, 2003
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    Bastuna
    The exact quote I got from my dealer when I ordered mine: "just a hair shy of 500 hp." So if you're hoping for 525, it doesn't look like it's going to happen.
     
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  13. Victory

    Victory Formula Junior

    Jan 28, 2004
    410
    I agree.
     
  14. scycle2020

    scycle2020 F1 Rookie

    Jan 26, 2004
    3,458
    potomac
    The current horsepower race has gone out of control!!!!!!What percent of drivers and what percent of the time are these cars used on the track?...these are street cars...even withthe 360,which everyone on this forun have forgot is very FAST,is difficult to even drive at 60% with killing someone or going to jail...a sports car in every day driving in the us is about the feel, the sound, the emotion...all ov which the 360 gives more than most other sport cars...i have drive the gallardo, dialblo, murci, sl55 and gt2 and the 360 is mor efun to drive,less horsepwer not with standing.....what would most of people on this forun really do witha 600-700 hp car, you couldnt really drive, just baby it all the time...a total waste!...lletsnot mis the point of what a ferrari really is- a car that can evoke more passion standing still than most cars going 150!
     
  15. bluekawala

    bluekawala Formula Junior

    Jan 22, 2004
    430
    Ormond Beach, FL

    Perfect! Yes, about the horsepower waste oh, sorry... race. Power is nice and all, but give me a lighter weight stunning looking car with all the revs the motor can handle.

    I wouldn't mind a 1000hp twin-turbo Diablo or anything... but I'll need a house outside Munich as well. Or a near by race track... come to think of it though with a track near by I'd probably just by a Radical, or a vintage racecar.
     
  16. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,667
    It is TQ that causes acceleration; because acceleration is caused by a force (f = m*a) being exerted and TQ is force in rotational coordinates.

    But if you want to work in terms of HP divide by velocity:

    F = P/V = m*a

    But then you are only transmission ratio, differential ratio and rolling radius from TQ. (ignoring losses):

    TQ*tranny*diff/rollingradius = F = P/V = m*a
     
  17. teak360

    teak360 F1 Veteran
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    Brian Stradale is correct; You, Mitch, are chanting the mantra of the masses.
     
  18. C. Losito

    C. Losito Formula Junior

    Dec 12, 2003
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    Chris Losito
    Explain to me why my 1970 Dodge (230hp, 320ft.lbs. @ 2400rpm) puts two car lengths on my 96 C36 AMG (268hp, 280ft.lbs @ 4000rpm) before the Benz finally decides it wants to get out of the hole. Of course, it's all over for the Dodge by the time second gear rolls around.

    *edit*
    Just to help you out:

    Dodge first gear: 2.70
    Dodge rear gear: 2.76

    Benz first gear: 3.81
    Benz rear gear: 2.87 (could be wrong about that)
     
  19. Victory

    Victory Formula Junior

    Jan 28, 2004
    410
    Spiderman, maybe Ferrari will put this engine in the forthcoming 4-WD Maserati Kubang. I'll buy it. :)
     
  20. Senna1994

    Senna1994 F1 World Champ
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    Brian is right on the money. The 360 replacement doesn't need that kind of torque as it is a lightweight car and the only way for that torque is either displacement (which would wreck the balance) or forced induction which Ferrari has not done since the F40. This HP war is out of control, who here does not think that a 360 is fast enough for the street? On the track it makes a difference, but if you want torque buy a V12.

    An F1 car makes close to 900 hp but only puts out about 300 lbs of torque, I think they are plenty quick.

    Just my 2 cents.
     
  21. teak360

    teak360 F1 Veteran
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    Maybe you need to be more forceful with the Benz. Tell it in no uncertain terms that it is leaving the hole when you say, not when it decides, or no more bratwurst for dinner!

    Seriously, I just find it interesting that people generally consider hp and torque to be two important but unrelated things. Torque is nothing more than a component of horsepower. Any running engine makes hp at all rpms and tq at all rpms. Your Dodge just makes hp at lower rpm. Given that the cars were equal in weight and with the proper gearing the Merc would win any race, any length, any time against the Dodge. (discounting wind resistance)
     
  22. Korr

    Korr F1 World Champ
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    You have that backwards.
     
  23. C. Losito

    C. Losito Formula Junior

    Dec 12, 2003
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    Absolutely correct (well, except for the "torque is nothing more than a component of horsepower" thing). I think the moral of this story is that torque is important, but it's better to have it at high rpm's.
     
  24. teak360

    teak360 F1 Veteran
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    Do you mean I should have said "euqrot is a component of rewopesroh" ?
    I didn't think so.

    Do youself a simple favor and do two Google searches:
    1. torque is a component of horsepower
    2. horsepower is a component of torque

    Then get back to me.
     
  25. teak360

    teak360 F1 Veteran
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    I think the moral is "I've never met a car that couldn't use more horsepower"
     
  26. jakermc

    jakermc Formula 3
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    Jan 17, 2004
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    Rob
    Speed and acceleration are defined by the horsepower/weight relationship. While more torque will lead to more horsepower, a low torque engine can achieve the same horsepower as a high torque engine simply by spinning at higher rpms. This is explained here:

    Power (hp) = Torque (ft-lb) * RPM / 5252


    As Brian correctly explained, the only real advantage to a high torque engine is that the power comes on at lower rpms so the driver does not have to downshift to find it. I suppose this is good for those that just want to stomp on the gas pedal and go, but I prefer to be invovled in the driving experience. If not, I'd just buy a Corvette with an automatic transmission.
     
  27. Steve275

    Steve275 Formula Junior
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    Jun 20, 2003
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    Torque everytime...No Argument !

    Steve
     
  28. vette79

    vette79 Karting

    Nov 3, 2003
    50
    hes actually correct, teak. horsepower is nothing more than a calculated figure that is derived from torque. when you take your car or any car for that matter and throw it on a dyno, the dyno measures torque and torque only. it doesnt have a clue what horsepower is nor does it care. the dyno measures torque then the horsepower number is calculated by a computer attatched to your dyno machine. the above calculation is correct-HP=Tq x rpm divided by 5252
    at any given rpm level, horsepower is nothing more than a description of the torque at that level.
     

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