TR clutch will not disengage | FerrariChat

TR clutch will not disengage

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by peteficarra, May 28, 2012.

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  1. peteficarra

    peteficarra Karting

    Jun 22, 2010
    158
    ontario
    Full Name:
    peter j ficarra
    I try to shift my 86 TR and cannot get it in gear unless I shut off the motor. Then I push in the clutch, turn the key and the car lurches ahead. I have bled the bleeder at he rear of the bell housing with no air in the fluid. I see no leaks, could this be the slave cylinder or throw-out bearing. I did notice some slight slipping before this happened. I was near my home and winding it out in first and when I tried to go to second it would not go, I had to shut it off, shift it back into first when it started in gear and limp the short distance home. Can anyone help?
    Thanks in advance,
    Pete
     
  2. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
    18,221
    Twin Cities
    Full Name:
    Tim Keseluk
    Master, slave, pressure plate. Probably one of those.

    Complete your Profile.
     
  3. JTR

    JTR Formula 3
    Owner

    Apr 26, 2005
    1,502
    in a house
    Full Name:
    John
    Does the clutch pedal take the same amount of force/pressure to depress, as it did when everything worked okay?

    Are you sure you have fluid in the system, or that the system is completely full?

    John
     
  4. peteficarra

    peteficarra Karting

    Jun 22, 2010
    158
    ontario
    Full Name:
    peter j ficarra
    I have filled the resoivor when I bleed it and it is still full. No it feels like nothing is moving when I push the pedal in and the clutch is always engaged?
     
  5. JTR

    JTR Formula 3
    Owner

    Apr 26, 2005
    1,502
    in a house
    Full Name:
    John
    Then it sounds like you're back to the throwout bearing or one of the parts that 2NA suggests.
    You could probably connect a pressure gauge at the slave to confirm the oil pressure being sent to it if you're a DIYer, or just have the car flatbeded to you favorite shop if you're not.

    John
     
  6. peteficarra

    peteficarra Karting

    Jun 22, 2010
    158
    ontario
    Full Name:
    peter j ficarra
    I have pressure when I open the bleeder after it is pumped. I am a doit yourselfer as I had to replace the motor mount housing behind the flywheel because it was cracked after an accident where the wheel was hit.(before I bought it) I have removed the clutch etc so I do not have a problem doing that, I have a time problem as I work out of town and come home weekends. I just hoped it would be something quicker like a slave cylinder because nothing moves when the clutch is depressed. Don't know if I mentioned the brakes are great.
    Thanks,
    Pete
     
  7. mtooze

    mtooze Karting

    Jan 30, 2009
    70
    lincoln, ne
    Full Name:
    marcus tooze
    So clutch not disengaging fully or at all. Ok, u have pressure at the bleeder, so the master is probably ok. Has to be the slave (i.e., its not pushing or not pushing enough, hard to say from ur description if it feels like you have no pedal feel) TO bearing (i.e., worn to point it cant push enough, or simply disintegrated), or possibly boken/worn springs/fingers on the clutch plate ( if broken...again the TO bearing has nothing to press against, or worn to point they cant be pressed in enuf to disegage the clutch).

    Marcus
     
  8. peteficarra

    peteficarra Karting

    Jun 22, 2010
    158
    ontario
    Full Name:
    peter j ficarra
    Thanks guys for your suggestions, I guess I will pull it all apart and see whats worn. I will post as soon as I find out.
    Pete
     
  9. Dr_ferrari

    Dr_ferrari Formula 3
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,071
    Pocono Sportscar
    Full Name:
    Jim McGee
    I am guessing the car sat for a bit.

    more than likely the clutch plate is rusted to the flywheel or pressure plate.

    very common...

    Regards, Jim
     
  10. JTR

    JTR Formula 3
    Owner

    Apr 26, 2005
    1,502
    in a house
    Full Name:
    John
    If you've already been into the clutch you won't have any problems.
    Let us know what you find, and better yet, post some pictures as you go!

    John
     
  11. MS250

    MS250 Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    26,580
    Full Name:
    Avvocato
    +1

    Did mine 2 yrs ago.

    Same symptoms on my 86.
     
  12. peteficarra

    peteficarra Karting

    Jun 22, 2010
    158
    ontario
    Full Name:
    peter j ficarra
    Took it apart today and one disc had exploded while the other was intact. My 86 TR has only 26,800 miles and I would bet it was the orginal clutch. Is this the best way to go, get them relined, turn the clutch and flywheel. ( they seem smooth but I do not want to do this again) I have all the seals already and I am not rich so a brand new clutch as a package is not in the picture. Some one asked if this car sat a lot and the answer is yes it has. Thanks in advance for your input,
    Pete
     
  13. JTR

    JTR Formula 3
    Owner

    Apr 26, 2005
    1,502
    in a house
    Full Name:
    John
    Well, at least the problem is no longer a mystery!

    When I did my Boxer clutch, I had it relined by Clutchmasters. I sent the entire clutch and flywheel, and they re-surfaced the flywheel, intermediate plate and pressure plate. Then re-lined the two disc's and balanced everything.

    The link below is the write-up I did at the time. Maybe it'll be of some help to you.

    John

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=168509&highlight=Clutch+Replacement
     
  14. OptimusPrime

    OptimusPrime Formula Junior

    May 10, 2011
    291
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Tom
    All frictions Inc. Relined my clutch plates last winter for $90 for each plate. Make sure you keep track of the "H" marks when you disassemble as the clutch assembly is balanced. There is paint on the aluminum ring and pressure plate also that need to stay together also. You may not need to remachine plates if there is no damage and hot spots are superficial..you can have a shop hit them with light abrasive and see if they clean up. Pins are not easy to find. I had to machine new pins as they broke removing them from flywheel so I could machine flywheel. Also, after you get parts ready to assemble, the repair manual has a formula and drawing showing how to measure to determine the thickness of the spacers. They will change If the relining of clutch is thicker than stock or you remove metal off flywheel,center plate (if it is two plate clutch) or pressure plate. You may know all this but I thought it might save you some headache if you didnt.
     
  15. peteficarra

    peteficarra Karting

    Jun 22, 2010
    158
    ontario
    Full Name:
    peter j ficarra
    Thanks to both of you for the valuable info. One disc is in pieces so I hope I can find the H on the metal that is left. I did mark it with paint when I pulled it apart a couple of years ago. I will post when I get it fixed how it worked out and who I used.
     
  16. mtooze

    mtooze Karting

    Jan 30, 2009
    70
    lincoln, ne
    Full Name:
    marcus tooze
    I did my 360 clutch about two years ago when i still had it. The factory clutch started slipping at 12k. Dealer wanted $3600 for a new clutch which of course is rediculous.

    Took the tranny out myself and sent the flywheel/clutch/pressure plate into www.hrclutch.com in PA. Had it reworked with combo ceramic/kevlar clutch plate. They surfaced the flywheel and p-plate and replaced the springs/fingers etc. It all cost about 600 if i remember correctly.

    My friend now has the car, clutch has about another 6k and is holding up to his shinanigans.

    I went with ceramic/kevlar as i have read in a few places that the pure kevlar clutches last forever but can slip. Have suffered no slipping with the kev/ceramic combo.

    Lastly, if you want to go really "cost effective" and Not exotic, any local brake/clutch machine shop should be able to replace the linings easily for less that $100. There is nothing much special about these clutches.

    Good luck

    Marcus
     
  17. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jul 25, 2008
    14,268
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands, Europe.
    Full Name:
    Mel
    Pete, please .... these postings are almost worthless without pictures ...did you make any ?

    Please share ..... :)
     
  18. OptimusPrime

    OptimusPrime Formula Junior

    May 10, 2011
    291
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Tom
    #18 OptimusPrime, Jun 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Ok, not the best pictures, but you can see the "H" marks on the clutch plates and you can see the hot spots on the center plate and flywheel. I assemble them back in the sme way 180 deg from pressure plate "H". If you look at the clutch plates, you would think there is enough friction material left and that I should not have needed to refriction the clutch plates so soon. That is what I thought, but after investigating, I discoved that the surfaces had been machined in the past and the flywheel pins with the shoulders were not machined to match the amount of material removed so the pin shoulders were interfering with the pressure plate at the pin holes and the spacers were not actually determining the gap like the design calls for. Previous owner did not see this and it was difficult to determine untill the complete assembly was clamped together to take measurements for the spacers...and even then we almost missed it. After machining new pins to the correct shoulder and machining new spacers, the new clutch will wear longer now and not need to be changed as early. If you note the hot spots, since there was not metal on metal and the slipping was not too bad yet, the plates did not require more than a dusting cut to bring them flat and clean again.
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  19. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jul 25, 2008
    14,268
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands, Europe.
    Full Name:
    Mel
  20. peteficarra

    peteficarra Karting

    Jun 22, 2010
    158
    ontario
    Full Name:
    peter j ficarra
    Guys, ciutch is all done and works great BUT, When I started it up it would not stay running and has no power at all. The only way I could get to 50 MPH was to run it up through the gears and it made it just barely. It has spark on both sides so I know it is not the coil module. I had one of those go and running on half the cylinders it had 10 times more power than it has now on 12. I think it must be something I did when I did the clutch but have had no luck finding the problem. I did not remove the flywheel as it was in fine shape as was the pressure plate. In the past I have replaced the tachometric relay when the fuel pumps would not start. The plugs do not look soaked with gas, the car will not rev up at all. Anybody have any ideas where to start?
     
  21. JTR

    JTR Formula 3
    Owner

    Apr 26, 2005
    1,502
    in a house
    Full Name:
    John
    Did you remove the distributor/s to do the clutch work?

    John
     
  22. capcgn

    capcgn Karting

    Oct 7, 2006
    132
    Germany
    please check of you missed the ground cable to install again to the engine ????
     
  23. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,842
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    With that symptom, plus already confirming that you have spark present on both banks (and assuming that you do have the grounding reassembled correctly), the next place to go would be to confirm/deny if the protection relay/10A fuse is working correctly. Try a search on "TR red wire" for prior threads/information on how to measure (and give a shout back if you can't find it).
     
  24. peteficarra

    peteficarra Karting

    Jun 22, 2010
    158
    ontario
    Full Name:
    peter j ficarra
    I did not remove the distributors and yes the ground cable is in place back on the engine where it was. I just hot wired the relay for one of the fuel pumps and no change at all. I have had this car for 10 years and it always started instantly, went to a faster idle til it warmed up, then would sit there and purr like a kitten til I took it down the road with all the power anyone could ever need. Right now it is dead
     
  25. peteficarra

    peteficarra Karting

    Jun 22, 2010
    158
    ontario
    Full Name:
    peter j ficarra
    Thanks guys for your replys. Steve, I did a search for protection relay/10A fuse, red wire and all that came up is my post from your comments I guess. Is the protection relay/10A fuse behind the fuse panel? By the way I pulled all the white plugs out and replaced them and checked all the connections I could find.
     

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