Good Evening to All....especially Steve.... Please refere to my previous threads regarding this dilema...and then this thread should make sense. I preformed the "light indicating power" test on the Orange Wire in the J-Connector. I used a test light from the wire terminal to ground, and had my girlfriend Karen crank the starter. The light showed the coldstart injectors are getting power. She repeatedly started and the light flashed on for a second or two, and then went out. The next step per Steve's recommendations, I checked the voltage of terminals 85 and 86 on Relay "A" in the small black box located under the right rear fender area. It was necessary for me to remove the box, and take the bottom panel off to access the relay. I then plugged everything back in and had Karen hit the key. The engine started momentarily and sputtered to a stop. I had her repeat this several times, and on the last time the engine kept running but barely. During this there was NO VOLTAGE at the relay terminals 85 and 86. PROGNOSIS: This indicates that the "brain" does not know that the engine is cold, and therefore it is not enrichening the fuel mixture. So the motor is trying to run cold on a mixture intended for a warm engine. Next is to check out the water temp switch, oil temp switch, maybe the pressure differential switch, and the large coaxial style connectors themselves. I installed a new temp sensor (the one in front of the thermo-time switch). Is this the water temp switch that Steve is referring to? And would unplugging it make any difference? Would it be possible to run a jumper wire to Relay A in the black box and "fool" the brain into thinking the engine is cold, and see if the car runs okay? Sorry to confuse everyone...I'm scratching my head too! Steve...if your out there please expound some of wisdom of some us less-learned....I sure would appreciate it. Thank You Everyone for all your patience and support.
The gizmo you replaced is the water temp thermistor (not the water temp switch) -- keep the water temp thermistor plugged in. The water temp switch is mounted on the LH side of that same casting. It has two spade-type terminals -- one with a red wire and one with a orange/black wire. The correct operation is (everything plugged in): red wire = always +12V (relative to ground) when the engine is running orange/black wire = +12V (relative to ground) when cold orange/black wire = 0V (relative to ground) when warm (coolant temp greater than 63 deg C) It's the +12V signal on that orange/black wire that goes thru the oil thermoswitch and the big round C12 connector to eventually get to terminal 85 of relay A as an orange/red wire (terminal 86 of Relay A is always ground -- but as I mentioned before sometimes terminals 85 and 86 get swapped in the documentation so a way to confirm the one used for "ground" is that it is also connected to terminal 30 of relay A). I think there's no problem with "helping" relay A get closed when cold-running. You can either manually add a 12V signal to terminal 85 of relay A to try to close relay A when cold running, or you can just remove relay A and add a jumper network to connect the 30 female terminal to both the 87 and 87b female terminals of the relay A socket (this is what relay A does when it's closed by having a 12V differential between terminals 85 and 86). But check what's going on at the orange/black wire and the red wire at the water temp switch: 1. If the red wire terminal is not +12V (relative to ground) you have a problem in the wiring harness. 2. If the orange/black wire terminal isn't going +12V (relative to ground) during cold-running (but the red wire is at +12V relative to ground) just jumper the red wire directly to the orange/black wire (which is what the "closed" water temp switch would do when cold) and then recheck for the +12V between the 85 and 86 terminals at relay A. 3. If the orange black wire is going +12V when cold, but you still don't measure +12V between terminals 85 and 86 at relay A then you've got a problem at the oil temp switch or the big round C12 connector or the wiring associated with each. Continue chewing and report back
Oh My Gawd....something's wrong !!!!!! I'm actually starting to understand all this! Maybe I better go lay down and rest? There are definately too many items in the chain of command that determine how the car runs "cold". So many things work off of temperatures, you'd think they would have commonized them a bit better. Like ONE sensor/switch for coolant, that would influence everything from the radiator fans, temp gauge, and all running conditions. I'm no genius or anything, but it just seems easier to branch off of one sensor than to have each little function have it's own sensor. What a roll of the dice it is to try and find the problem. No matter....this is quite an education I'm getting. Where else could I go to learn and do all this stuff? I will be in a good buying position when I get my next Testarossa.....yes I said next one! Once my car is all sorted out, it is sold to a local doctor. He wanted it on the spot but I told him "No" and that the only way I'll sell it is if it's totally reliable and everything works properly. Besides in our small town of 12,000 I'll be seeing the ol'e girl around quite a bit. And I'll probably be doing the next cambelt service on it for him....since I'm the only Ferrari-Guy in the area. These cars are like beautiful woman who know they are beautiful. You put up with the headaches because when all is right with them it's fantastic!
Well Steve and the all others interested...I did some more checks, and the results have not been good. Here's what I've done today: I checked the Orange/Black wire and the Red wire at the water temp switch. The Orange/Black wire to Relay "A" terminal-85 reads 0 ohms...this is correct. The Red wire is supposed to have 12 volts when the engine is running when cold. There was 0 volts! Perhaps a wiring harness problem. Next I decided to "jump" Relay "A" terminals 30, 87, and 87b of the relay socket. So I made a network jumper and went to insert the connectors when I now see there are no wires or anything in the space for the center terminal 87. So I assumed the relay must connect just the two outer sockets...terminals 30 and 87. So I jumped these two and attempted to start the car. Now at this point....I believe the brain should have "thought" the car is cold and richen up the fuel mixture accordingly. But when I started the car it was just as always...start and run momentarily then it spitted and sputtered and died. No change. DOG-GONE-IT !!! I was hoping the engine would run during this test, at least then I would have some hope of a light at the end of the tunnel. So either the brain is bad? Or the brain is fine but it's signal isn't reaching the fuel distributors? Or perhaps the fuel system's basic mixture setting is incorrect - doubtful, as I used a 4 gas analyzer and set it...the car runs fine when warm, no surging, smooth idle, revs up and drops to steady idle at about 1000 rpms every time. Again I lay my head on the Bosch CSI chopping block.....have mercy !
Jeff -- Relay A socket in the triangular black box definitely has metal terminals at all 5 positions (including the middle position). The Bosch part number for relay A is ...006, and it will have a "K" symbol on the case -- are you sure you've got the right relay? (It is not a ...113 type.) For relay A: connecting terminal 30 to terminal 87 at the relay A socket turns on the air injection system connecting terminal 30 to terminal 87b (the middle socket) at the relay A socket "tells" the injection ECUs that the engine is "cold" (and to ignore any signals coming from the O2 sensors because the air injection system is "on"). Try the same test with 30 jumpered to 87b (once you clear up relay A identity). No +12V on the red wire is bad -- it should be +12V always (not just cold). It's the same +12V that runs the whole injection system (coming from relay C terminal 87 -- relay C is the oddball one with the fuse) but there are some "crimp"-style connectors in the harness. Unplug the red wire from the water temp switch and unplug relay C from its socket -- measure the resistance from the red wire to the 87 terminal of the relay C socket -- should be near zero ohms.
Jeff -- Your report that there was no metal terminal in the the middle position of the relay "A" socket has me concerned that your relays A, D, and E might be swapped around. Just to confirm the relay names, part numbers, and the socket they should be plugged into: relay "A" = Bosch part number ...006 terminal 30 = 2 wires terminal 85 = 1 wire terminal 86 = 2 wires middle terminal (87b) = 2 wires terminal 87 = 1 wire relay "B" = the other oddball relay relay "C" = the oddball relay with the fuse relay "D" = Bosch part number ...101 terminal 30 = 1 wire terminal 85 = 2 wires terminal 86 = 2 wires middle terminal (87a) = 1 wire terminal 87 = not used (no wire) relay "E" = Bosch part number ...113 terminal 30 = 2 wires terminal 85 = 1 wire terminal 86 = 1 wire middle terminal = not used (no wire) terminal 87 = 2 wires Can you please confirm/deny if this matches your TR?
Hello to Steve and the fchat gang.... It seems I was looking at the wrong relay earlier....my mistake. So with the correct relay in sight....I tried jumping terminals 30 to 87b, and started the car....the usual fire up...spit and cough....die. I also measured the resistance from the red wire at the water temp switch to Relay "A" terminal 87....read 0 ohms....this is correct. My thoughts: It seems that all the connections from the thermo-time switch and the water temp switch are correct with their respective terminals at the relays in the black traingular box. The one thing that is missing through all the testing is voltage. There doesn't seem to be any power for the injection ECUs. The red wire at the water temp switch should be 12 volts all the time. I did see about 1.5 volts at this wire during cranking and initial fire up of the motor....not sure how or why. I need to get power through all these sensors and switches. But first I need to know where the power comes from up at the mother board...and then all the sensors/switches it goes through on it's way to the fuel injection ECUs. It looks almost impossible to trace the wiring as it's all bundled up and snakes around under the intakes and fuel distributors. I will run new wires if necessary from the mother board back to the engine bay provided I know the pathways to take. I'm tempted to run a "jumper" power wire from the mother board back to the water temp switch and see what happens....but something tells me not to. Any help is appreciated....and THANK YOU to Steve and all others for your help and input. Oh....since some TR owners out there might be interested I'm posting a couple of pics of the black traingular box and the mess I've made. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Jeff -- You said: Is this just a typo? The resistance measurement of interest was from the (unplugged) red wire at the water temp switch to the Relay "C" (the oddball relay with the fuse) terminal 87 socket. Two more upstream things to check to confirm/deny the presence of the +12V power (with everything plugged in): 1. The +12V power comes into the relay C terminal 30 directly from the battery -- it should always be +12V (even with the key "off"). 2. When the engine is running (warm or cold), relay C closes and connects the +12V power on terminal 30 to terminal 87 -- when the engine is running (warm or cold) terminal 87 of relay C should be +12V. As a test you could just jumper the 30 terminal of the relay C socket to the 87 terminal of the relay C socket -- assuming you've got the +12V from the battery present at terminal 30 of relay C, that would put +12V on the red wire (assuming your reported "good" continuity check was from relay C terminal 87 to the red wire and the fuse in relay C is not blown). happy (further) hunting...
I checked Relay "C" terminal 30 and got 12.4 volts. Whew...at least something has power. I plugged everything back in and started the car and checked terminal 87 (2 red wires) for voltage....NOTHING. Does this indicate Relay "C" is bad?
Could be three things: 1. relay C is bad, 2. the fuse on relay C is blown, or 3. the +12V signal from the tachyometric relay that relay C is expecting on terminal 15 is missing. so: 1. (everything plugged in) measure the voltage on the 15 terminal of relay C when the engine is running (warm or cold) -- if +12V (and the fuse is OK), then you can strongly conclude that relay C is toast (verifying a good ground on terminal 31 is the only other thing to check at relay C). If terminal 15 is not +12V when running, we'll start going up that tributary 2. But you can also try the test of manually jumpering relay C closed (i.e., jumping 30 to 87 on the relay C socket after removing relay C -- and put a 10A fuse in the jumper, if possible) -- see if this has any effect, but since you've confirmed that you have no power on terminal 87 of relay C when running, your system has been working like a simple K-Jet without lambda system when warm (where you've set the mixture screw to match the condition of no current in the EM valve coils when warm-running). Get this stuff working and you may/will need to retweak the mixture screws (although I've got my doubts about two EM valves waking up from a long nap and working without trouble -- but we'll be hopeful ). The KE-system uses the EM valves to do the same function as the K-Jet warm-up regulators so no power to that system would prevent any cold enrichment (I'm surprised it works at all -- I had thought that no power to the injection ECUs was a fatal flaw).
With everything plugged in and engine running, terminal 15 of Relay "C" has about 14 volts. When I jumped terminals 30 and 87 in Relay "C" Socket it made no difference in how the motor runs. So I feel that Relay "C" is probably okay.
I can't agree with your conclusion yet -- until you measure +12V on terminal 87 of relay C during engine running (cold or warm) you can't conclude that relay C is OK. Relay C's only function is to connect the +12V battery power on terminal 30 to terminal 87 (via the fuse), when running, if the conditions of: terminal 15 is at +12V terminal 31 is at ground are met. Your KE-system can not work properly if terminal 87 of relay C is not +12V during engine running. But I have a different question -- when you jumpered terminal 30 to terminal 87 on the relay C socket (with the engine running) did you confirm that the red wire at the water temp switch was also now at +12V? These points are on opposite ends of the +12V network so this checks some of the connector and harness connections in-between. Regardless of whether it fixes your entire "problem" or not, terminal 87 on relay C and the red wire at the water temp switch must be +12V during engine running of US KE TR for proper operation -- I can gaurentee that. You may have other things to address yet, but no power in the injection system has to be fixed. Were you going to send me an email?
One thing I noticed when trouble shooting a similar problem in my 86TR was the wiring diagrams had the location of the relays wrong. You may want to check to be sure you have the relays plugged into the right socket
Thanks eogorman....I "think" the relays are right, maybe look at the pics I posted and see if you agree? Steve...so far in all the testing, the Red wire at the water temp switch has been 0 volts....no power. I also measured the resistance of the Red wire to Relay "C" socket 87 and got 0 ohms. Funny thing....I checked terminals 30 and 31 and got 0 ohms too !?!? So the fuel ECUs are looking for two voltages, one from the tachyometric relay (which I have) , and one from the numerous temp-controlled switches (which I don't have)? Are the switches "in series" or are they independant? I again went and jumped Relay "C" terminals 87 and 30 and started the motor and it ran the same crappy way it always has. With the jumper wire still hooked up, I probed for power and only got 0.24 volts? But unhooked terminal 30 has 12 volts? It seems that with the jumper wire in place the fuel ECUs should be working no matter what....how would I verify they are actually doing "something"? Just as I thought maybe I was getting close to the problem (s) and now I'm more confused than ever. I feel like beating the snot out of some Bosch engineers....but maybe I'll have a beer instead !!
Although it doesn't seem like it, you are getting closer -- that's an excellent clue that you just have to keep going upstream. Terminal 30 on relay C going from +12V when not hooked to anything down to 0.24V under load is an indication that you have a high resistance (like ~100 Ohms) in the connection from the yellow/red wire at terminal 30 of the starter solenoid (terminal 30 on the starter solenoid is the same post that the big +12V battery cable is hooked to), thru the big round connector C12 pin 8, to terminal 30 on the relay C socket. I'd suggest that you remove the yellow/red wire lug from terminal 30 at the starter solenoid and measure the resistance from the (free) yellow/red wire lug terminal to terminal 30 on relay C -- should not be more than ~1 Ohm. Also gives you a chance just to check and freshen that connection of the yellow/red wire lug terminal to the +12V battery cable end. You must have terminal 30 and terminal 87 of relay C at +9~12V during engine running. You'd measure the voltage between (or current flowing thru) pins 10 and 12 of the injection ECU itself or where those wires connect to the EM valve coil. There's no need to even think about going there yet if you don't get the +12V on terminal 87 (and terminal 30) of relay C when running.
Steve.....funny you should mention the starter solenoid....my car has a Ford solenoid installed along with the original one! I wondered about this when I bought it, but heard of the "hot start" problems and just assumed this was the previous owner's method of avoiding that situation. When I did the first engine-out service, I moved this extra solenoid up under the driver's side fuel distributor so it would be out of sight. But I didn't want to discard it since everything "appeared" to be fine. I can't remember exactly how the wires hook up....but based on what your saying this could be an issue. I've heard new solenoids areren't very expensive and I'll be more than happy to get one.....if it will have a positive impact on the current situation. What is your opinion?
With a fresh Ace-Electric 7-851 starter solenoid (now WAI) the "extra" relay at the starter is unnecessary IME: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52784&highlight=Ace+Electric+7-851 Bottom line is that the yellow/red wire (that eventually goes over to relay C terminal 30) must be well-connected electrically to the large +12V battery cable at the starter (regardless of what other "special" relay arrangement you have at the starter solenoid).
Thank You Steve: I had to do lots of phone calls, but finally found a rebuilder within 30 minutes of my location that can get me that solenoid. It sure seems cruel that they (WAI) can't just send me one UPS. I'll be ordering it on Tuesday morning. Meanwhile....now that I have some free time (finally!) I'm gonna go out and start tracing that Yellow/Red wire and see what's up. And just in case it isn't clear to you and all who are tuning into this thread....I truly appreciate all your guidance....
Steve....I disconnected the battery, and then measured the resistance of the yellow/red wire from the starter solenoid end to the #8 pin in the big round connector...I got around 25 ohms or so. Higher than it should be...so now I'm thinking of removing the "extra" solenoid and it's wiring but I buried the thing under the left side fuel distributor. I will eventually remove it when I get the new proper solenoid. But for now I ran a jumper wire from the big starter post (battery 12 volts all the time) to where the yellow/red wire goes into the bottom of the socket for relay "C". I then hooked the battery back up while watching for any unusual reactions (sparks or noises) but all seemed fine. I did get a little whining sound from the mother board area that lasted for a few seconds then stopped, as I recall this is normal. I then took a deep breath, swallowed hard, and turned the ignition key. The motor fired right up instantly and idled at about 1100 rpms...surging very slightly....but running quite well !!!!!!!!!!! This has never happened since I've owned this car, it has never run at all when cold !!!! I let the motor run for a few seconds to make sure it wasn't a fluke or anything....all seemed fine. I then shut it down and disconnected the battery again for safety, because I'm not sure if a jumper wire is a good thing. So until I hear different, everything is on hold. But it does brighten my day to hear the ol'e girl run like that when cold! I can only imagine the previous owner had hot starting problems, and had a "mechanic" buddy rig up the extra solenoid to fix the starting problem, but inadvertantly created another problem. And when they couldn't figure it out they richened up the mixture until they kinda balanced things out between cold and warm running conditions. In fact....when I got the car the access holes for the mixture screws were open....no plug or anything!! I didn't discover it for quite a while. When I plugged them it changed everything and I've been wrestling with this car ever since....3 years !! I have the car running pretty good considering it's not getting any input to the brain, but it's time to finally fix the problem. Ya Know....over time I've taught myself, and learned from the GREAT PEOPLE LIKE STEVE and OTHERS LIKE HENRYK AND JRV, how to fix most everything on this TR. Everything except this last hurdle with the cold/warm running problem. I finally feel like I'm close to solving the problem. It's a wonderful day in the neighborhood !! I would be TOTALLY LOST without fchat and you terrific people !! To all you enthusiasts out there who do your own work.....please....never take this site for granted. I'm not the brightest guy in the world, but with all the help and perseverance I've really gone beyond where I thought I could. My car required tons of repairs due to neglect and shoddy workmanship, I have uncovered some things on my car that would have you shaking your heads in shock. Maybe when I get through this last issue I will write a story about my TR, telling of it's condition when I got it (horrible) to the present. It's been a long hard road for "both of us"....but I have no regrets. Sorry to get off on a tangent here....I'm just very happy right now and got a little carried away. Thanks for listening.
Boy...I sure did "bury" that other solenoid, it looks like the only way I'm going to get at it is to remove everything from the top of the motor,intake plunums, fuel dist's, air meter housings, everything. Not sure I wanna do that if a simple jumper wire from the starter to Relay "C" would be sufficient. Would there be any harm in running a wire through the flexible conduit over to the black triangular box, in through the back side grommet, and to the Relay socket, and leave all as it is?
Glad you found a major cause of your cold-running problems (let's hope that the rest of it wakes up working well from its long slumber), but I've never liked adding another band-aid to fix an existing band-aid -- i.e., I'd deduct seriously on a PPI with added wiring mods -- JMO (but, as long as the yellow/red wire is hooked directly the +12V battery side, it should work).
Yes Steve I agree with you.....a patch on a patch is no fix...but I won't get the new solenoid till next maybe Thursday or so, and I wanted to see just how the thing would run. I simply piggy-backed in a "power" wire to the original one using a weather-pack connector. So all I have to do is unhook the extra wire and all is good. I'm not too keen on ripping off the top half of the motor to get at the extra solenoid. I removed the left side intake plenum hoping to at least access the terminals to undo the wires....no room at all. I can barely see it. I should have left it out in the open.....just in front of the starter....where it was when I got the car. Oh well....I'll get some new gaskets and rip into it next week. You are quite right about "everything waking up after the long slumber"...I started to hook up the gas analyzer and adjust the fuel mixture, I'd adjust one side and then do the other side, little bits at a time. I'd go from side to side a couple of times getting closer to optimum. Then I'd hook up the O2 sensors and everything would act funny....this is a "low-brow" question to ask, but the single wire to the O2s is the heater wire or the actual signal wire? I marked the O2's for their specific cylinder bank...but that was prior to them actually doing anything. What pin in the big connector would I check to see just which sensor goes to which side? Do all 3 wires of each sensor go through the brains on the right fender? The settings seemed fairly stable to where I'd set them, then if I shut the car off and restarted it and let it run for a bit, the settings would be different from the previous readings? Not sure why other than things are "waking up". I get things set and try repeated starts/runs and see if it's consistent. I have all day tomorrow to change the spark plugs, check things out, and then "tune" the mixture. I have been told to set the mixture at 1.25 with the O2's unplugged....we'll see....I'll keep you posted.
The single wire is the output signal of the O2 sensor. Only this wire is connected to the injection ECU. The two wire connector is for the internal heater -- which is just a +12V wire that comes on with the key and a ground wire. The forwardmost injection ECU is for the 7/12 bank. The single signal wire from the 7/12 O2 sensor should go to pin 8 on the injection ECU. Same thing for the rearward 1/6 injection ECU -- the 1/6 O2 sensor signal goes to pin 8. Give it your best shot now, but I think you should run a tankful or two of Techron concentrate (just in case you've got some varnish build-up in the EM valves) and try it again. Also when you have it running at warm idle closed-loop measure the voltages coming from the O2 sensors -- should be a sin wave going from 0 to 1 VDC every second or two.
Steve: Thank You for the info. on which O2 sensor wire goes to which Fuel ECU....because mine were backwards !! This morning I installed new spark plugs, and checked all the plug wires....they are fine. They should be as I just made them last year. I took my time installing the plugs, carefully plugging on the extenders and finally the wires. I took a general tour of everything to make sure I hadn't missed any bolts, nuts, or wires, etc. All looked good. I started her up.....she fired up immediately and settled down to a fast idle around 1500 rpms or so. After a couple of minutes the idle went down to around 1050 rpms....but was somewhat unstable. Since the mixture was so screwed up this is understandable. With the O2s disconnected I set the mixture to approx. 130 average. I did notice that the front 3 cylinders of each bank tended to run a bit leaner than the rear 3 cylinders? I set the front 3 of each bank to around 120 and the rear 3 to around 140. With my Borla exhaust each header has it's own muffler and tail pipe...no crossing over or mixing....this is how I was able to check just 3 cylinders at a time. It took me about 3 tries to dial everything in, and I set the idle air-bypass using a single vacuum gage (since I don't have a 2 matched gages) going side to side. The idle speed was wandering slightly but then stabilized at 1050 and stayed there....like a rock. I rev'd the motor.....wow.....throttle response is "instant" compared to what it used to be. I shut the car off....waited a bit....and started it up again to recheck.....all is good. Very quick reving.....very stable idle....no surging or hunting....I wonder how it will drive.......? OH MY GAWD....THIS THING ROCKS !!! I simply cannot believe how much more power it has now......I took a gentle left hand curve and hit the gas....instant wheel spin and fish tailing, but it's okay as I was ready for it. This car is much quicker than I thought it could be. I'm on cloud nine at the moment. I drove around town doing my best to keep my foot out of it. I visited family, got some gas...each time it started right up on the first or second turn of the motor and purrs like a cat! I can't tell you how good it feels after 3 LONG YEARS OF KNUCKLE-BUSTING on this car to have it run this strong. It used to occasionally puff a bit of smoke at start up before...but it's nice and clean now! It sounds much meaner out the pipes now too! Thank You again Steve for all your help....THANK YOU !! I have contacted an fchat moderator to see if they can combine my various threads I've posted through out this ordeal.....it will make a good reference tool for other "rode-hard-and-put-away-wet" Testarossa owners out there. LIFE IS GOOD AGAIN.....!
Glad to hear it. It is easy to get the O2 sensors mixed up when you install an aftermarket exhaust. Not surprised that your apparent power feels better -- when you get on it (like 60% open throttle) the EM valves add enrichment to give a best-power ~12.5:1 air/fuel ratio (now that you've got the +12V power restored) rather than using the O2 sensors (and running 14.7:1). Since you have such a "separated" exhaust system does that mean that the O2 sensor is only reading 3 cylinders in each back? (Not that it makes a big difference, but just curious.)
