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TR engine knock

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by tamburini44, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3
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    Jan 28, 2004
    1,005
    Dubai, UAE
    First time I did my belts, I let the tensioner springs load the belts, but forgot to tighten the bolts down that hold the tensioners in place. Much racket ensued when I started the Accra and drove it around the block before the tensioner bearings self destructed. By Divine intervention the belts did not slip.

    My point is that even the best designs are not idiot (me) proof. How good is that belt service paperwork?
     
  2. MaseratiMike

    MaseratiMike Karting

    Mar 15, 2016
    237
    UK
    Full Name:
    Mike
    You can remove that rear engine cowling panel, there are 4x 10mm headed bolts underneath the panel which you should be able to feel with your hands and get a small ratchet s
    You can remove the red engine cowl panel which sits just under the rear screen, which the black rear engine bay grill bolts into. There are 4x 10mm headed bolts which hold the panel in place, I have removed mine a few times after trying to access the rear engine area. You should be able to feel the bolt heads and remove with a socket wrench or ratchet spanner no problem.... It will at least give you a bit more space.
     
  3. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Rookie

    Jun 6, 2019
    38
    About 3.5 pages of things noted, belts and tensioner bearings among them ...
     
  4. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Rookie

    Jun 6, 2019
    38
    Alright, so if I remove the belt cover I should see these marks on the rear protection plate and the cams?


    Yeah, it seems to fall within that range.
     
  5. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Rookie

    Jun 6, 2019
    38
    Thank you.
     
  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    #31 Steve Magnusson, Jun 10, 2019 at 5:03 PM
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019 at 5:17 PM
    No, I think you just have to look at that rear cover where the cams pass thru it on a later TR. The white mark shown in the photo is the reference mark for the 1-6 intake cam:

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    There is a similar "line" on the backside of the 1-6 intake cam hub that should align with the white mark when the engine is at TDC 1-6 and #1 is at the end of its compression stroke. If you refer to page B33 in the TR WSM there is a description and figure 34 of these additional cam timing markings -- although they show some sort of fixed pointer for a reference rather than the white mark on the rear cover (my guess is very early TR did not have the rear cover). Each cam should have a similar set of marks on the rear cover and the cam -- so if all 4 don't line up together at the same time = you'll know something has seriously gone wrong
     
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  7. vincenzo

    vincenzo Formula 3
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    Nov 2, 2003
    2,297
    Forget diagnosis at this point. Valves contacted pistons. Engine needs to come out.

    Chat with the shop that did the major. If you still have confidence in them, they likely need to fix it.... depends.

    If not, get it done elsewhere with lots of documentation. You may wind up in court.

    If you need a more reputable shop, lots of folks here have good recommendations.

    Perhaps don’t publicize the shop at this point. It may impact your efforts to get restitution.

    This could get expensive. Proceed with care.

    PS: nice piston pics. Which camera are you using?
     
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  8. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Rookie

    Jun 6, 2019
    38
    Camera is a cheap usb borescope I had. Not the best in this context as the cable is too flexible.

    So, my understanding is that considering there are multiple affected cylinders, all on one bank, the only way this could have happened
    is if the timing was sufficiently wrong, e.g., through the belt breaking or slipping.

    I can see a bit of the belt, just left of the rear protection plate, and can get a finger on it, it seems tight.
    Also, the borescope fit through that small deformation. Some pics.



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  9. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Rookie

    Jun 6, 2019
    38

    Thanks for the explanation. By chance they're both visible.

    If the timing was correct, considering their proximity, should I be starting to see marks on the flywheel?

    BTW, is it normal for the cam gasket to stick out like this?






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  10. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    I'd suggest that you rotate the engine by hand (if it rotates without interference) until the 7-12 bank secondary cam timing marks both align -- then confirm the flywheel pointer is near the 1-6 PM mark on the flywheel and then look at the 1-6 bank secondary cam marks to see where they are (although I have to agree with vincenzo that fresh looking valve marks on the pistons is already "game over" :().
     
  11. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Rookie

    Jun 6, 2019
    38
    For sure, I just wanted to confirm that the belt slipped.

    But, is there something other than the belt slipping that could cause this?
    Something wrong with the camshaft?
     
  12. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3
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    Dubai, UAE
    In theory, any engine could drop a valve, but it would generally make a much bigger mess than the photos show.
     
  13. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    In theory, things like the phasing pin between the cam sprocket and the camshaft flange shearing, or being left out ;), might give your symptom (i.e., the center bolt holds the sprocket to the cam well enough for a while, but then the sprocket slips rotationally after some use while the belt still seems tight). I'll agree with JohnMH that having any valve-to-piston contact marks showing, and not a bunch of serious damage and broken bits, is fortunate...
     
  14. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Rookie

    Jun 6, 2019
    38
    Thank you everyone for the knowledge, much appreciated.

    Given the situation, I think I'll go with an official dealer.

    I'm probably overlooking some things, but considering a minimum of 12 valves and 4 pistons,
    about $10k in parts and similar in labor?
     
  15. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Rookie

    Jun 6, 2019
    38
    Glad it's not the bottom of the engine, or at least based on the visible damage, I'm guessing it's not.
     
  16. vincenzo

    vincenzo Formula 3
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    Nov 2, 2003
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    The last place to take it is a dealer.

    There are a few good shops out there. A dealer will rape you and likely do no better work than a QUALITY independent. LOTS of shady, crappy “Ferrari” independents out there (as you well know).

    Are you on the west coast? East? South?
     
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  17. xplodee

    xplodee Formula Junior

    Jan 3, 2017
    523
    Allentown, PA
    Full Name:
    Tim
    My experience with a dealer (Algar Ferrari in PA) was a joke. They made it “right” but it doesnt undo how thoughtless their tech was.
     
  18. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Rookie

    Jun 6, 2019
    38
    At home it'd be easy, unfortunately the car is at our house in Europe, so it's more iffy.

    The mechanic acquaintance is the private mechanic for someone's large collection.
    I'd go with him, particularly as I'd learn something, but it looks like time could be an issue, I don't want the car apart for months.
     
  19. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Rookie

    Jun 6, 2019
    38
    I've had good experiences with Reina International in WI, mixed experiences with other independents, good and "made it right" experiences with dealers.

    I've read about TR's breaking belts after a dealer service, so there are cases to support both sides.
     
  20. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Rookie

    Jun 6, 2019
    38
    Looked at the belt again. I must have pushed on something else previously. It's loose and completely uncentered on the tensioner pulley,
    I'd say about 1in of deflection, pretty much like this



    It's a Ferrari belt. Anyone know if these have dates on them?

    Going to have a damage report done and go from there.
     
  21. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3
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    Dubai, UAE
    Where is the car in Europe? I may know a person or two who can easily work on a TR (if you are in or near Italy). PM me.
     
  22. vincenzo

    vincenzo Formula 3
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    #48 vincenzo, Jun 13, 2019 at 11:53 AM
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019 at 11:59 AM
    Fyi

    At two hundred miles.... that belt is so loose, I can’t imagine why. If it is the tech’s fault - some SERIOUS incompetence or malice is at play. I would seriously suspect an incorrect part number.

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  23. MOSS

    MOSS Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Apr 28, 2004
    907
    So sorry to see this. Man I hope your guy will stand behind their work. It is so rare these days and that can be the biggest nightmare of owning one of these.
     
  24. Arvid

    Arvid Formula Junior
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    May 28, 2012
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    Arvid Andersson
    Thats loose !! Are you able to see if the tensioner is tightened ?
     

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