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TR engine knock

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by tamburini44, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    In case there's any confusion, the borescope pics are from my car.
    That's not my engine in the video, mine's still in the car, but the belt on the bank that's damaged is about that loose.
    The section to the left of the rear cover can be pushed down to the pipe underneath.

    I'll check the part nr. Hopefully I can see it all.
     
    vincenzo likes this.
  2. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    No idea, until the engine is out.
     
  3. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    Yep, you don't buy the car that needs a major, you buy the one that has just had it done, and something like this happens.
    Damn, shame. But, as Steve implied, most of the failures that happen, seem to be shortly after. In retrospect I should have put more miles on it.

    And pity the belts can't be checked like on the 308's.
     
  4. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    155401, it's the correct belt.
     
  5. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    I'd argue that you should (at lower price, of course). Seriously, I know it delays the gratification, but, if something goes wrong, you have near-zero recourse with a Shop that you didn't hire and pay (especially if a long distance away) -- just a thought...
     
    xplodee likes this.
  6. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    In my case the shop is also the seller, but it's definitely something to pay attention to and maybe rethink.
    Fresh major may not be fresh paint, but it's better to have the service billed separately.
    Or include language in the contract that achieves the same.

    Or buying one without the service may indeed be better.
     
  7. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    I would do that (as that does give you direct recourse). If a Seller wanted me to buy a car with a "fresh major" done (where I had no recourse with the Shop), I would only value that about about 1/2 of the cost -- JMO.
     
  8. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
  9. vincenzo

    vincenzo Formula 3
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    Nov 2, 2003
    2,425
    Even a bit of gravel kicked into the belts can wreak havoc. The cheap a$$ plastic that Fcar uses is a disposable piece. It is likely worthy of replacement at each service. Inspect extremely well before re-use.
     
  10. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    #60 Steve Magnusson, Jun 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
    I'd add that that happens most often when someone forgets to put the rear covers in place before putting on the cam pulleys and hassling with setting the cam timing ;)

    The Boxers don't have them so maybe only minimal risk to not install them, but F obviously felt there was some risk (and I believe they were introduced first on the 308QV so it's only the 2-valve 308 and maybe very early 308QV where the belts are easily inspected visually).
     
    turbo-joe likes this.
  11. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
  12. xplodee

    xplodee Formula Junior

    Jan 3, 2017
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    Allentown, PA
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    Tim
    I so agree with this. Get the seller to knock $5-10k off the price and take it without a major. Then you can get it done RIGHT and with some liability to boot.
     
  13. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    Almost a month for the dealer appointment.

    Do you guys see any damaged parts in these pics?
    Looks like the rear cover may be cracked.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    2
     

    Attached Files:

  15. dwhite

    dwhite F1 Rookie

    Can't see much in those pictures, but if it is cracked do you know for sure it was not cracked prior to your ownership.

    If your timing belt is deflecting over 1 inch, I would have concerns. From all your descriptions of the sounds coming from the motor, best to get it out and apart.
     
  16. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    Yeah, the appointment's in a month. I'll take it there before, hopefully they get to it quicker.
     
  17. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    Belt's from 2016

    16 261147
     

    Attached Files:

  18. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    With majors running 15k$... I don’t mean to bum you out, but I would suspect the cost would be way higher than 10k$ I can imagine $25k or more if you intend to replace pistons. If just rebuilding heads, way way less...
     
    turbo-joe likes this.
  19. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    In a post long ago I asked what keeps the tensioner bolt from unscrewing... answer was, “it just doesn’t...”
     
  20. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    Yep, considering the belt is recent, it's most likely the tensioner or the bolt.
    Looks like it can be checked in situ, but I have to wait for the damage report.

    Those of you who do your own majors, do you loctite the tensioner bolts?
    I only did the belts on my Ducati's and they're holding fine without.

    Regarding the pistons, assuming no cracks, is there a downside to reusing them?
    Would prefer to change them but if it's much more than $20k, changing the engine would enter into the picture.

    Unbelievable stuff after 200 miles.
     
  21. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    When I did my major, I did use blue Loctite... not sure if needed, but made me feel better.

    What happened to you happens to millions of cars annually, I would guess. But other cars are cheaper to fix.

    If the piston tops have small nicks, they can likely be buffed/sanded to avoid sharp edges, and then just redo the heads. When these cars are worth 500k, it can be done "right."

    The dealer will likely wish to:

    1) Disassemble the entire motor
    2) change the rod and main bearings
    3) Change pistons
    4) Reassemble
    5) Then redo the entire major

    That's probably what it would take to have a "warranty."

    If your in the USA, contact Brian Crall in Texas, and see what this might cost, perhaps to rebuild the heads only...

    Changing the motor would likely be more expensive, and then you don't know what you have... A used block is probably 30k$. Then the labor to redo everything and the major...

    Did you do a leakdown just to verify the damage??? Could it be something else???
     
  22. vincenzo

    vincenzo Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,425
    Loctite?
    Good question. I struggled with this decision during my major.

    The retaining washer had signs of galling under the bolt head. It has so much clamping force at the OEM torque that the bolt was literally welding itself to the washer! The metallurgy (hardness) differences are not optimal (hard bolt - soft washer).

    F-car cites torque based on clean, dry, burr free threads. Loctite lubricates the assembly and may cause an over-torque situation. It could exacerbate the galling and cause stiction during the torque. Bottom line.... the effective torque with loctite is indeterminate. More galling, more stiction, more lubricant.... who can guess the loading on the threads???

    An over torqued bolt won’t hold and will damage the threads. An under torqued bolt won’t hold.... but at least it won’t damage the assembly.

    Only the sweet spot will do.

    My final solution was to add anti-seize between the bolt head and washer (only) to minimize galling and to use clean dry threads.

    More info and pics at post #45 here:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/83958-major-2016-cam-timing.513496/
     
  23. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    An engine with a disassembled trans went for about $15k on BaT recently. I prefer to repair the original, but at that price
    I could do a swap and rebuild the original at leisure and drop it back in when done.

    Thanks for the list. I requested some quotes from the dealer.
    Hopefully I can get away with a cylinder head rebuild and major.
     
  24. Veedub00

    Veedub00 F1 Rookie
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    Jun 30, 2006
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    James
    I mean, you got to see what the actual damage is first before you can plan a course of action.
     
    turbo-joe likes this.
  25. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    Right, the appointment is made but since it's about a month away I requested estimates for best case scenario, cylinder head rebuild and major,
    and worst case, bpu699's list. Will see if I get anything meaningful.
     

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