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TR engine knock

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by tamburini44, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. vincenzo

    vincenzo Formula 3
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    Nov 2, 2003
    2,425
    #101 vincenzo, Aug 7, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
    Guys...

    take a clean, new engine, new car... all the tools on hand... plenty of space... a helping hand upon request... no interruptions... LOTS of experience... add a dose HUSTLE.

    Yup - those mhr estimates are way too high.

    Trouble is - most cars and engines are filthy and rusted. Threads need to be chased and/helicoiled. Hours need to be spent in a solvent tank. New tools likely need to be fabricated. Most all shops have limited space. Often times nobody is around to offer a few minutes of helping hands now and then. Everybody gets interrupted. Those who routinely work on Testarossas are few and far between. Most are not in a race to ‘get it done’.

    Take the best case hours and multiply by at least 1.5 - 2.0 to get into the realm of reality (in a professional shop).

    For an old guy like me - use a factor of 4 to 5.

    I can’t count how many hrs have been spent researching the right part, with the right specs and the right finish.


    ‘removing the head’ is a far cry different from ‘refurbish the head’.

    PS: if your shop offers to do just one head - you are in the WRONG shop.
     
    AaronS, MOSS and turbo-joe like this.
  2. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    Finally took the engine apart.

    The only good news is that the shop that did the major is entirely at fault.

    The bad follows. See anything wrong?



    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  3. Veedub00

    Veedub00 F1 Rookie
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    Jun 30, 2006
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    Troy, Michigan
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    James
    no tensioners?
     
  4. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    The shop that did the major installed the 1st intake camshaft bearing upside down, which caused the camshaft to overheat in that area, grind into the head, eventually seizing up.

    That caused 12 teeth on the timing belt to be stripped on the crankshaft pulley. That's why the belt felt loose.

    We also found that both of the rear timing belt covers were deformed, cracked and deeply gouged by the pulleys.
    I don't understand how they could have done this, unless they missed some spacers, although I don't see any in the parts diagram.

    If the dealer agrees to warranty the work without the back covers, I'd rather not have them.
    The belts are not fully enclosed even with them present, and I'd rather see belts.

    So, the head is damaged, the intake camshaft is damaged, all intake valves are bent, all pistons were hit by the intake valves,
    number one was hit by the exhaust valves also.

    A fresh major can have its downsides. The shop that did the work races in F3.
    I thought that would be a plus, but obviously it's not a guarantee of quality nor integrity.
     
  5. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    no teeth on the left timing belt in the crankshaft pulley area.
     
  6. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
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    Houston, Texas
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    Bubba
    Damn....very sorry.

    The "rear belt covers" came late on the 308 series toothed drive belt engines, my early 308s were open on the back.

    But we have had wild tales about road debris damage, even a 308 belt cut by a tossed Toll Booth coin.
     
  7. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
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    Apr 6, 2008
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    southwest germany
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    romano schwabel
    sad to see this all :(

    please have an exact look at the valve guides. often they are broken also when the valves have been bent. you may use a magnifying glass.
    also have a look at the tappets, they can break where the valve stem has contact and it is also hard to see

    hopefully the repairshop will handle all without a lawyer! it is 100 % their fault


    you are sure? please post a photo where we can see this. so the number on the half bearing and the number on the head and also from the second and third bearing to see the difference
     
    flaviaman likes this.
  8. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    I suppose there's always a chance something can get in there but, personally I'd rather see the belts.
    Plus considering the state of the rear cover in my car, I don't know what went wrong there.

    Transparent ones would allow us to see the belts at least.

    In the end nothing can make up for incompetence and negligence.
     
  9. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    Bubba
    I looked at those a long time, as unless they just flexed into the ends of the cam drive gears, I see no way the gears could even leave those marks/damage.

    The gears themselves are ok?
    What a mess.....

    As you say, they don't cover "much" of the belt, just the area of the belt/drive gear interface....
     
  10. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    Not gonna happen without a beatdown. Wrong arena frankly, but letting slide is not an option.

    Sure. The V is inverted compared to all others. Ferrari mechanic and inspector confirmed. The bearing is seized on the camshaft.
     
  11. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    Considering the front covers slide onto the bolts in the block and the rears are screwed into the front covers,
    the depth of the front covers dictates the space between the front and rear covers.

    So, either the deformation or the fronts were not all the way in, is that possible?

    The pulleys seem to be ok, that plastic is quite soft.
    Before we pulled the camshafts, we thought the rear covers may have caused the damage.
     
  12. AaronS

    AaronS Rookie

    Jan 24, 2019
    2
    Full Name:
    Aaron Strickland
    For the lazy or impatient theres two options on how to complete engine work. You can do a job right. Or do a job wrong.
    For the experienced and quality seekers, theres only one way to do engine work, and that is precise and checking twice.

    You sir need a drink! And that shop needs to make their work right!!
     
    turbo-joe likes this.
  13. JLF

    JLF Formula Junior

    Sep 8, 2009
    878
    Dallas
    Full Name:
    JERRY
    Reminds me of a quote my best friends mom put on the Fridge in high school.
    “If you don’t have time to do it right the first time..... when will you have time to do it over again?”
     
  14. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
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    on my competiton when I did first time the belts the rear covers also had a little scratching from the gears what I always wondered and still wonder where this came from?

    if this would be happen to me in my shop my insurance will pay all. it does not matter if I put the half bearing wrong inside or if I would have forgotten to tighten a screw.
    so a good shop has an insurance for this ;)
    wish you good luck!
     
  15. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    Unless I had a redesigned version, I'd skip them, but I can understand why some feel otherwise.


    The shop even claims the engine and transmission are warrantied for a year.

    They do have insurance and I know the name. But I will have to drag this out of them.
    Wrong venue though. Needs US lawyers for some truly serious satisfaction.
     
  16. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    The half bearings are matched to the cylinder head. Are the camshafts matched to the head also?
     
  17. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
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    romano schwabel
    I don´t know but I don´t think so. the cams are normal production and all the cams have the same dimensions.

    I wonder why the cam/bearing is only damaged on the outside half and not on the complete side? may be some dirt has been inside during assembling? looks for me very strange and had this never seen so before
    what is this little red piece in the damaged bearing in the head? silicone?
     
  18. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    They went crazy with the sealant of course (shake head) but that speck is cam cover red, not sealant red.
    It's not there in all of the photos and if that was the cause it would probably be embedded in the cam.

    Looks like the cam ground into the head until it picked up enough material to seize against the bearing.
    So whatever it rubbed against is on it. That bearing is totally fused.

    There's more damage on one side but it's not only half - check out the close up of the head.
    Half is heavily damaged. The next quarter less so and the last quarter slightly.

    If the engine had chains it would be a much bigger mess. The belt acted like a fuse.
     
  19. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
  20. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    Even with the British pound in the gutter, parts estimate is already approaching $20k.
     
  21. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    82
    Any recommendations regarding the valves, Ferrari vs. third party?
     

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