News

TR engine knock

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by tamburini44, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    Can you tell me more about this?
     
  2. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2008
    5,557
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    you never do only 1 head at an engine what has more than 1 heads. so normaly all, otherwise as I see it, it will not be right work :(
    sure you can do it the cheap way but then this shop doing this job may get problem when later something else will go worng.

    sorry, too lazy just now to read all, but how many miles the motor has?

    and when you are so far then it would be good to make just a complete engine overwhaul, may be you need only bearings same std size an dalso piston rings std? this little signs at the pistons you may inspect closer, bu tI think no problem no use them again.

    a good machine shop will fix the bearing in the head and also the half bearing on the top, also can grind the camshaft that you not need a new one.

    just now I don´t know the valve sizes, but you may compare some valves from japanese motorcycles or also cars with high rpm. much cheaper and I think also better, but until now I have not the time to look for equal valves. it makes no sense to buy F valves for inlet 170,- each.

    if you like 24 used inlet valves ( 120476 ) and also 24 used outlet valves ( 120477 ) make me an offer. I have here because I like to put in larger valves and so I not need those anymore

    120476 are inlet valves for testarossa up to 1990, the 512TR and the M has 139855. does someone knows the difference? other material or other dimensions?
     
  3. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    40k.

    I'd be fine with this, so long as the dealer oversees the entire operation.
    Otherwise there's the risk of one party blaming the other if there's an issue later.


    I'll let you know.

    I'll take about a week to think about the best way forward.
    It's not just about the technical aspects, but also some EU legal constraints which are a total nuisance.
     
  4. vincenzo

    vincenzo Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,481
    Why not just one head?

    A smooth running engine has each cylinder producing similar compression/power. If six have fresh, full compression/power and the other six are tired... you will never have a smooth running engine.

    My engine will balance a nickel on the intake manifold. It runs well... but is not ‘special’. The cylinders are reasonably well balanced.
     
  5. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    What about the fresh top end vs. the tired bottom end?

    For a balanced, optimum result, one would have to rebuild the entire engine.
     
    turbo-joe likes this.
  6. vincenzo

    vincenzo Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,481
    The power made within the cylinder is unaffected by tired bearings.

    If only six pistons are changed out with fresh rings/hone, then yes... an entire rebuild would be best. My statement is based on not changing out pistons/rings.
     
  7. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    Thanks.


    Options:


    1. Doing a full rebuild.

    Issues: because of EU laws I'd have to mothball the engine for the duration of the legal process.


    2. Doing the minimum - rebuilding the RH top end.

    Issues: doing the top end only, even if it's both sides, would leave me with an engine bearing the marks of catastrophic failure,
    and possible hidden damage, and frankly diminished value. Considering this wasn't an act of God, that's a compromise.


    If anyone has a lead on a good european TR engine please let me know.
    That would allow me to go for option 1) without immobilizing the car for the duration of the legal process with these *******.



    Other options:

    3.. Go electric during the legal process, assuming it's reversible and comparably priced.
     
  8. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2008
    5,557
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    where are you located in europe?

    your profile says nothing, so would be great if you could fill out
     
  9. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    BTW, is there some sort of sn# or unique identifier, or at least a manufacturing date on the cylinder heads?
     
  10. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    You have the same process in Germany with the gutachters etc, so you know what I mean.
     
  11. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2008
    5,557
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    I know what you mean, that is why I asked you where you are located because may be I can help you about this all?

    normaly the court order the gutachter and as soon as he finished you get the engine back. but unfortunately you already dismanteled the engine, found all what is wrong and the gutachter not knows for example if this engine has been in your car or not.

    when you order the gutachter and it comes to court then this gutachten ( opinion ? ) is not neutral because it was ordered by you and not by the court.

    when I baught my competition I had a diff problem after short time, inspected the gearboxoil ( a lot of debris/parts inside ) and then just started an evidence assurance procedure ( beweissicherungsverfahren ). but this all took about 1 year and then I started to repair

    have good luck with all the problems you have now
     
  12. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    Does anyone have experience with the Superformance valves or pistons?
     
  13. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111

    Our neighbor is German so he told me about the gutachters. That's scary about 'getting the engine back'. They literally take your engine?

    The reason it took us so long to take the engine apart is because I had to follow the legal procedure.
    The shop/seller was summoned to two inspections by our insurance. They didn't come.

    The F dealer did all the dismantling etc in the presence of the inspector.
    Now it goes to court and there's another inspection, ordered by the court. Kafkaesque system.

    I'll work with the local lawyers to ensure compliance, but the surest way is to procure another engine.
    I hired lawyers elsewhere also, in case there's a way to expedite this nightmare.
     
  14. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    Gents,

    The dealer wanted to do a full rebuild: new head for the damaged one, intake cam, rebuild the other head,
    new valves, etc all around, new cylinder liners, pistons and rings, new rod bearings, main bearings, verify the crankshaft,
    new belts, basically everything, 120h of labor, adding up to about $70k.

    At current valuations, that's not going to happen.
    I can sell the car as is and lose half that with a whole lot less stress.


    What do you think about the other options mentioned below.

    The car has 39k miles, went through a major and sympathetic mechanical
    and cosmetic restoration about 1 year ago, barely driven since.

    Damage: seized the intake cam on bank 1-6, damaged head,
    broke that timing belt, bent all intake valves on 1-6, pistons #1 has four marks,
    pistons 2-6 have two marks each. Pics of the damage above.


    Repair options:

    1. good used head and cam for the damaged ones.
    verify undamaged head to ensure cam caps are installed correctly etc.
    take out sharp edges from piston marks - is there a name for this op?
    leakdown and compression tests. If the tests are good, new belts, close it up and reinstall.


    2. as option 1) but with two rebuilt heads instead of one used one.


    The dealer has so far said they will not install rebuilt heads without also doing the bottom end.
    They claim the increased compression can damage the bottom end.
    I told them I'd waive their liability regarding that but they're not budging.

    Everything I've seen on Fchat, including cases with similar damage,
    suggests that changing the heads, even with rebuilt ones, without doing the bottom end
    is not an issue, so long as the leakdown shows no issues.

    Considering the damage shown in the pics what do you guys think?

    I don't want to do something that would cause more damage,
    but I think the dealer is exaggerating the risk.

    The engine is out and partially disassembled and other trustworthy options are very limited,
    so I'd prefer to do the job there.


    3. buy known good used engine for not much more than option 2),
    but if I went this route I'd probably swap heads and keep the original engine in the car.
     
  15. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2008
    5,557
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    a full rebuilt would be the best ( if done right ? ? ? )

    I think for option 1 or 2 you will not find someone to do this. too much risk for those who will do and if something not ok later then because of warranty has to do again on their own costs.

    if you could do all by yourself I would prefer option 1, so only 1 head

    so if you let do the work then option 3, but even then it will be not so easy to find one making this job because of the warranty and also it will be not so easy I think to find an engine?


    but another thing: the shop who did this job before did a mistake, so they are responsible for their bad work and they have to repair all perfect on their own costs. so it is in germany and for this I also have an insurance here if this would once happen to me.
     
  16. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    #143 tamburini44, Oct 28, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
    If I'm paying it makes no sense at current valuations, a NOS 512M engine is less than the rebuild,
    and I have a buyer for the car as it is for half the loss and none of the stress of an engine rebuild.

    Speaking of the 512M engine, anyone know what mods would be needed to mount it in a TR?

    I would give them a waiver regarding the bottom end.
    I think indi shops wouldn't have too many issues with this.
    At least one Ferrari indi shop in the UK would do it, already discussed in detail, but shipping the car there in pieces is a concern.


    The Ferrari dealer has no issue putting another complete engine in, already found one - I'm going to proceed with one of the options this week.
    If I get the extra engine, I'd still prefer the heads swapped to keep the original engine number, which they're not happy with.

    What's your take on changing the heads without doing the bottom end?
    Purely from a technical perspective? If the leakdown is good of course.


    They're a racing group with a several satellite companies. They removed the company that issued the invoice from the commercial register.
    I have lawyers after them but it's going to take time.
     
  17. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
  18. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2008
    5,557
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    you would also need an other injection and igniton system/ blackboxes/wires sets. may be also exhaust?

    if this would be mine I first would do only the damaged head, grind out the marks on the pistons a little and would try all. this is in my eyes only not even a 50 % repair but may be it will work fine and you are lucky? ;) otherwise when not working fine then the whole work and more again


    what please is an indi shop ?
     
  19. radlu

    radlu Formula Junior

    Jun 6, 2005
    335
    Spot on Diagnosis :) Good work.
     
  20. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    Seems to be what most people did, whether because of a seized cam or broken belt, and there were no issues.
    If the dealer agrees, I'd go with it.


    Independent. Guess you'd normally spell it indy.

    The shop in the UK is completely fine with doing the head only if the leakdown's ok.
    But they're concerned about oil starvation to the head, and it kinda makes sense. You alluded to this in an earlier post.
    I'm going to look at the engine again.

    Is the cap the cam seized on the furthest from the oil supply?
    I'm not entirely clear on the oil path to the caps.
     
  21. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2008
    5,557
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    thank you for clarification. so same as I do :)
     
  22. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111
    I appreciate your independent advice ;)
    Thanks.
     
  23. tamburini44

    tamburini44 Karting

    Jun 6, 2019
    111

Share This Page