TR vs. Boxer as a track day car

From my old R&T issues, the carbed 512 Boxer and a TR each weigh in at around 3800 lbs.

Both have flat 12's located over the transmission.

The TR is wider, but probably has better brakes and wider rubber to go with 30-40 more hp.

Neither is going to set a track record compared with say a 355 or 360. Given two cars in identical (excellent) condition, and assuming that TR is a post 1988.5 car with the non-metric tires, what would be easier / quicker to lap at a track day with?

Any thoughts?

John

 

John,

Not sure about the TR, but the tires and brakes on a stock boxer make fast, easy lapping impossible.

Greg A

 

Apparently the 4 piston ATE calipers are the same on both cars, so there may not be much of a difference there after all.

 

The weights for the 512BB are incorrect probably a heavy converted Amerispec car with picnic table for the bumper ,BBis do weigh more than 365s and 512BBs but he only way a BB would weigh 3800lbs is if it had massive heavy bumpers and door protection, Nichols book and FNA website on the Boxer states 3084lbs, factory manual 3300, Euro spec Boxers have no bumpers tp speak of just fibreglass covers, the same with the doors crash protection nothing there feather light aluminum, TRs were a car specifically made for the US market, real bumpers and door side impact protection plus every option known to man from solenoid operated glove boxes to many other gizmos.

Boxers have a very light feeling compared to a TR and even compared to my 328 which feels as though the weight is more spread out in the car vs the Boxer the weight feels concentrated right behind you which it is, my car has drilled rotors but stock calipers and it stops on a dime considering the limited choice of performance tires available in 15" high profile.

We had my aluminum rear deck off for painting and with all the grilles and carb covers off it weighed about 25lbs.

Anyway that said the only way I would take a Boxer on the track is to putt around, IMO its when not if you are going to crash or someone runs into you, a rear decklid from FerrariUK for a Boxer is $10k the front hood similar and thats still going to need major finish work on it, and many parts are unavailable so a minor shunt could cost tens of thousands, kind of a impractical car for this regularly unless you are planning a Monterey historic race type of thing.

If you want to hammer on a 12 on the track then a TR would be better as they made 5x as many of them and body parts are available easily both used and new.

 

Apart from bodywork issues in a shunt a boxer would at a minimum need new wheels and tires as the metric michelins are just not up to track work, hard to find and expensive.

A boxer engine can be tuned up quite well, just add bb cams and a motec injection system for 400 odd horses, change springs and shocks to go with new tires and you have an interesting beast. An idea of what is possible is a bblm, I read Nick Masons was significantly the track than his f40, so a modded street car with good tires shocks and 400 odd bhp is going to be quite formidable.

Seems the boxer never realised its true potential because ferrari was suffering from emission requirements and did not have the right tires.

Last thing tranny output shaft needs to be replaced for all this power, it is a weak link on boxers and testarossa's alike.

A good running stock boxer can outrun a 355 between 60 and 140. One thing is for certain, a boxer is rare and will turn heads, a testarossa will be less to purchase and run on the track.

 

That weight is not correct. I have the original Federalization papers for my 1983 Boxer (converted by AmeriSpec). It lists the weight at 3,460.

It has since been converted back to Euro specs and weighs less than that now.

Regarding tracking a Boxer or TR: Buy a older TR for about 1/2 the price of a Boxer and go thrash it around the track, if that's what you're into.

 

Boxerman...the carb cars don't have those dreadful metric wheels, and there are some reasonable tyres available in 15".

I've tracked my 512BB and am perfectly happy with it. I know it's limitations, which is basically brakes, and drive accordingly.

Most club days I've been to, mean you only get a handful of laps each session anyway, and 6 or 7 laps at a time is enough to have fun without stressing anything, including your own concentration level!!

TRossa and BB have the same brakes, but TRossa has more grip...hence more strain on brakes, so the BB brakes better after 3 laps than a TRossa does if you drive both to their respective limits!!

TRossa is probably a slightly better car, but not by enough in my mind. Every man and his dog has got/had/knows someone with a TRossa, so it's BB's for me.......(and not those BBi things either, forget tubi exhaust systems etc, that carb noise HAS to be heard before you die...which you might if you get carried away listening to it and forget about how bad your brakes are!)

 

All fascinating. I love the shape of the Boxer, and the raw 12 cylinder carb sound is extrordinary. They do cost more up front, and I would worry a great deal more about taking it to any track day. Originality would also become an issue, I would not want to monkey with it to add brakes or the like, aside from perhaps replacing the stock exhaust. I am aware the metric Michelins cost.

I have not yet had the pleasure of driving a boxer, but have driven a TR which seems to have a 2 stage personality. Around the city streets, it is quiet, smooth and wide. When you step on it, you get a great rush of power and some nice (but still quiet) sounds. As the car was not mine I was not going to test the handling, they do seem heavy at low speeds and like to follow ruts in the road. A friend says it makes a challenging track car with all the weight. (Between 3600 to 3800 lbs depending what you read). It does feel nice and solid though, like a post '90 SL Mercedes.

As for the boxer, what is the suspension, steering like? Does it feel solid too? my frame of refernce is a 308 GTS QV, which can flex if you push it.

Thanks for all the insight. Now all I need is to find a reasonably priced carb boxer in Canada.

 

How about this ?
Compared to a BBLM its a little down on power for now but the handling & brakes are much better
600hp + coming soon

 

SOmething about the boxer just doesnt go. It looks a little to kit carish.The fact that its a low production number car I would agree with most on the not thrashing that around. Too expensive to repair if damaged. I say go for the earlier TRs for half the money, upgrade your brakes abit and have fun blasting around the track. Half the money, same fun.

 

Early TR, but try and get the brakes upgraded to a brembo/MOVit/Stoptech/etc set.

 

The last thing a Boxer looks is like a kit car, I suppose you think a 308 looks like a kit car also?Too each his own but if you want to get into styling TRs are very dated now with the stuck in the 80s linear look, Boxers look clean and fresh even today with no gimmicks in their style, you still see many Trs on the road today, I have not seen a Boxer other than at a Ferrari event on the road in 20 years.

TRs weigh at least 600lbs more than a Boxer and feel it, no comparison in the rawness and ride of a Boxer, the light weight gives you more of a speed sensation than a Tr, and especially the sounds of a carbed car, one of the best sounding Ferrari engines ever.


As I said I don't think either is good for a track car, TRs are way too heavy and wide and the first series with the removable subframe will flex alot and effect handling, a Boxer too expensive and hard to fix if hit.

 

Practically speaking, I am not going to push either car to anywhere close to their respective limits. The local Ferrari club has a track day or two each year where I can get into the slow class and pretend I am something I am not. The feel and the sound of a real 12 cylinder Ferrari on a racetrack is the goal here, not absolute lap times. Either car, if in good condition should be able to do that.

The reason I like the boxer is first, it just looks more like a race car, especially with the rear clamshell up and second, it seems more raw, the way I'd assume a vintage Ferrari race car would be. I have been fortunate to passenger in a 360 Modena, that seemed very fast but almost anticlimatic. No question the 360 will go way faster than either a TR or a boxer (fun in it's own way no doubt) but my goal here is not to teach myself how to become a race car driver in my own expensive car, but rather just to have fun.

A boxer must be more rigid than an open top 308 chassis, but with that motor hung over the transmission, will it bite you without much warning?

 

Jeff, a boxer to the non ferrari eye guy looks like a 308 on steroids. Say what you will, but perception is that, and that is also the reality when the majority of the people view them. Personally, I love the boxers ride and handling and will oneday add to my collection, but the looks, still cant get over its look. Back to the question, if you will use at track events, I would still pick the TR to thrash around in, and use the boxer for a nice long distance run with the wife.

 

The purity of line in a boxer is what makes it so beautiful. The testarossa just tries too hard with lines that are disturbing and disjunctive, but then one look at the new 612 and you know ferrari has its off days. Compare a 456 to a 612, the newer car has better performance but is not as nice.

A boxer feels like its an early 70s can am car for that ersatz race car on the street experience. Yes a boxer can bite, I have spun mine fortunatly not hitting anything, but the break was extremly violent. But then when you learn to get it right powering through a bend and feeling all four tires start to crab sideways just before you exit that is somethin special. Just as important a boxer is fast and feels faster on the road, where any spirited driving requires concentration and ability. A boxer can be fun at 5/10ths and is totaly absorbing from 9/10ths on.

Modern cars need to be driven way beyond any street to be fun. A boxer equires you to know how to shift brake steer and balance the car, a modern requres warp speed on a track to give an adrenelin rush.

That leavs the testarossa, cheap enough they are a lot of car for the buck, better grip than a boxer, even more expensive to maintain, but a supercar bargin if you can stand the looks.

If the track is your priority then go for a 355 or tetarossa. If total ownership experience is your bag you cant beat a boxer, think of it as a daytona that handles.

 

An interesting comment that the TR costs more to maintain than the boxer.

The boxer might be simpler, however they both need to have the engine pulled to do a major service and I thought the intervals are same. The boxer has fewer valves to adjust, but the TR permits you to pull the entire rear subframe when you pull the motor, which leaves the drivetrain in place.

The fuel injection on the TR is probably quite reliable as opposed to the carbs which need adjustment on occasion as moving parts wear.

BTW, is the character of a BBi that different from a BB?

Reliability wise, the BBi and the TR should be close.

 

My experience with a boxer is with a bbi. From what I have heard and seen on fchat the testarossa has a more complx fuel injection+ emission system which has many little sensors to diagnose and fail, from posts on this site it seems that when a testarossa goes off song it is very hard to diagnose and put right. Also the car has more complex subsystems.

A boxer injection while hardly ideal is rewally very simple, the same type fitted to early rabbits and bmw's. In fact it has two of the systems fitted to a 6 series BMW that are then slaved to eacother through a throttle linkage, inelegant but bone simple.

The problem with injection on a boxer is that to make it work the cams had lose lift therby decreasing performance. This is much like what happened to a 308gtb when it became a gtbi altough the loss on a boxer is not nearly as acute. The boxer is also really sensitive to how it is setup, if the mixtures are spot on, the advance working properly and both banks balanced, throttle response is markedly improved and the car can feel like it has an extra 50bhp with a very strong pull right to redline. If any of these are off the engine loses its vigor. That is why it seems that there is so much debate over boxer performance in road tests. From experience I can say that a stock bbi properly tuned with a non restrictive exaust will pull to 165+ really quickly seeming to increase its rate of acceleratrion between 80 and 145 and can top out comfortably over 170 but cannot reach 180.

Since ferrari didn't have the technology in the late 70's and we now do, I am wondering what happens when a motec injection system is fitted to a boxer with better cams. Since a bblm made 450 real bhp i am thinking such a modificatin might yeild 400 odd real bhp with much better engine response.

The boxer has in my opinion two faults, wheels and tires that are too high profile with low grip, and an engine and exaust system utilising late 70 technology to meet euro noise and emission limits. Since about $7-10,000 wil correct these faults it will be interesting to see what a boxer version 4 is capable of. My guess is youre talking maranello or 512m performance. Of course the tranny output shaft would need an upgrade as well as this is a weal link on the flat 12 cars in general.

So take a $65000 cosmeticaly sound boxer needing its engine out service. Install a motec injection,512bb or 365 cams, rebuild suspension, add 16 inch wheels and you have a car that will be close to a 288gto in feel and performance for $85,00, that can easily be put back to stock.

As a boxer owner you could do these changes piecemeal. In fact having juyst written this I am thinking at my next engine out in two years of doing just that, meanwhile anyone have experience with wheel tire upgrades on a boxer.

 

There was an buyer's guide on the boxer in Forza, anyone know if it is located on the internet somewhere (like the TR buyers guide is)?

Might someone be willing to scan it in?
Thanks if you can.

 

After I blew past a 360 Stradale on the track the driver told me he wasnt used to being passed by TRs LOL

 

Does anyone know which issue of FORZA that buyers guide is in?