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track days and insurance...

Discussion in 'General Automotive Discussion' started by bpu699, Feb 25, 2005.

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  1. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    #1 bpu699, Feb 25, 2005
    I'm sure Farmer Dave will chime in here, but would love to hear other folks input too...

    I know that if you participate in a timed event (ie. RACE) on a track, get in an accident, you are pretty much on your own...

    What about the grey areas? What if it was a driver's ed event? What if it was a touring event? What if it was a timed event on a parking lot such as solo 1&2? Are these covered???

    I'm sure it varies to a degree from insurer to insurer...but was is the reality of whether coverage exists???

    I'm asking because I am going to enter the touring event the Chicago folks are entering, and would like to know where I stand. My insurance happens to be american family and state farm. Anyone with real world experience after a fender bender on a track. I would love to ask my agent, but quite frankly, I worry that just mentioning the word "race track" will come back to haunt me...As they say, sometimes it easier to get forgiveness than permission :).

    Any thought would be appreciated...

    edit:Further thoughts...

    Lets assume your insurance is fully null and void if you get on a track for any reason. Assume you are ok with risking your 60-200k$ toy. Heaven forbid you get a flat at 100mph+ and steer into someone else...Then what?

    I assume your liability/umbrella coverage is gone too...

    Am I understanding this correctly? Are there a lot of lawsuits generated due to track events? Geesh, being totally uninsured on a track seems like a quick way to financial ruin...do folks sign waivers absolving each other???
     
  2. FarmerDave

    FarmerDave F1 World Champ
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    #2 FarmerDave, Feb 25, 2005
    Short answer: If you want to participate in something like a timed event, driver ed event or autocross, consider yourself uninsured for the duration of the activity. There is no way of knowing whether the adjusters and underwriters at your insurance company will see the distinction between timed events and drivers ed events. The chances are, they won't see the distinction.

    And yes, asking that question will most likely result in you being labeled as a risk, and therefore, cancelled or non-renewed. Why? because if an incident occurs, it will still cost them lots of money in labor and legal fees, even if they deny the claim.

    I would advise that even if someone says they were "covered" and "insurance covered everything" and "they had no problems with me driving on a racetrack", that your mileage WILL vary.
     
  3. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    #3 bpu699, Feb 25, 2005
    Well, I figured that was the answer...

    So how do you folks deal with this? Even if you are willing to risk your car/toy, do you folks feel comforatable with the fact that you have no liability/umbrella coverage??? Seems like a nice way to risk everything....

    I know life is all about risk/rewards to a degree, but ....

    1) You make one slight mistake and nudge the kid in the honda civic...gee, you don't think he will sue the guy in the ferrari?

    2) Brakes go out, etc, or you just plain F*ck up, you hit a corner worker, or debris hits an observer...odds are someone will want money from you...

    Now I am not trying to shoot down track days - just the opposite. I'm trying to convince myself to go. How do you guys cope with this? Any other insurance for this? Can you get liability, even if you don't get comp, for the track? Does this keep folks from doing track days???

    My buddies currently track their 997's, with the understanding that it "isn't" a timed event...they believe they will be covered. Wishful thinking?

    It just seems unusual to me that a bunch of successful high net worth asset-laden folks would be willing to go on a track with zero implied coverage...

    What am I mssing here?
     
  4. FarmerDave

    FarmerDave F1 World Champ
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    #4 FarmerDave, Feb 25, 2005
    I did some research and learned a little about track day liability coverage.

    If a company is hosting a drivers education event at a racetrack, then they will often carry a liability policy which covers participant liability, up to whatever the limits of the poicy are.

    So you should contact the company/person who is running the event in order to find out more about what liability coverage there is for you as a participant in their event.

    Another tidbit I learned: Those cars that are furnished by the racing school are not covered for damage on the racetrack. That means, IMO, that there aint a policy in the world that would guarantee coverage on a racetrack. You are basically self-insured, meaning, you bear full responsibility for property damage to your vehicle.
     
  5. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    #5 bpu699, Feb 25, 2005
    ohh, some typical monday in suburbia:

    Agent: Ring, ring: Hello mr. Ferrari owner, what can I do for you?

    owner: Listen John, it was a little wet outside today and I rolled my car over several times, taking the turn into my driveway...

    Agent: Im sorry to hear, any bodily injury?

    Owner: No, thank God my Helmet protecte..I mean...I got my hand up fast enough to protect my face from penetrating the winshield...I think the car is totalled. It also was on fire after I nudged the mailbox...spark or something.

    Agent: How fast were you going? It takes quite some force to roll over a ferrari...

    Owner: 15 mph tops...but I was sitting on the far left side of my seat, and I did make that sharp right turn pretty quick. Did I mention it rained/hailed/snowed at the time? There might have been a small eartquake too - that is covered, isn't it...

    Some time later, as car is being inspected...

    Agent: Mr. Owner, why did you have a roll cage?

    Owner: Mere safety device, I carpool and take my toddler to school. I strap the baby seat to it...

    Agent: And the 5 point harness?

    Owner: Wife made me do it...said airbags are not enough...

    Agaent: Why is the number "43" written on your winshield?

    Owner: Well, I'm rich, you see...I number my cars...

    Agent: You didn't perhaps go racing, did you?

    Owner: Hell no! I do sometimes observe, but only from a distance...now, about my claim...

    Anyone want to bet a lot of "accidents" happen at home days after track events...hmmm
     
  6. FarmerDave

    FarmerDave F1 World Champ
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    #6 FarmerDave, Feb 25, 2005
    :)
     
  7. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    #7 Texas Forever, Feb 25, 2005
    Rule Number 1 - Don't hit anybody.
    Rule Number 2 - Don't go out on the track with kids driving.
    Rule Number 3 - Don't go out on the track if the event is out of control.


    See Rule Number 3 -- If you somehow manage to hit a corner worker or observer, you deserve to have your ass handed to you.

    PCA does provide some track insurance for their events, but only liability.

    I'm not sure about FCA events.

    Ironically, taking a Porsche on the track voids the warranty. This is not the case with Ferrari.

    Dr Who
     
  8. FarmerDave

    FarmerDave F1 World Champ
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    #8 FarmerDave, Feb 25, 2005
    FWIW, The FCA requires a 5MM liability policy for events like poker runs. I would imagine they obtain liability coverage for track events too.
     

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