I feel like I am launching the first nuke in the forum oil war. That is not my intention. The first question I have is on Birdman’s web sight he said he uses Redline 75W90 NS ("No Slip Modifier") In his 308 with good results. Has anyone els used this oil in their 308. Second question, are anyone of you using a ZDDP additive? I use an additive in my Exige to help protect the cams. It’s a long story but they are bad about wiping cams. When I was reading birdman’s page he talked about ZDDP.I had not thought of adding it in the 308 or my X1/9. For now I plan on using ZDDP in both of them. I know diesel oil still has it as an additive but I plan on sticking with Motul oil. Because Motul is the best oil ever, just kidding. Any thoughts would be appreciated https://birdman308.com/service/consumables/consumables.htm
"First nuke"? Hehehehehe! This subject has been destroyed many times over. I did prefer to use some Mobil1 15W50 (mixed with some Mobil1 10W40) in the flat tappet engines since it has slightly higher concentrations of Phosphorus and Zinc (although even those have been reduced in Mobil1 15W50 and all oils in recent years), but I live in a warm environment, too: file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/Mobil%201%20Engine%20Oils%20Product%20Guide%20Sheet%20-May%202022.pdf For the V8 (no hypoid gear) transaxles, most use the Redline 75W90NS or Redline MTL (but Ravenol VSG 75W90 would be on my "possible" list, too), and some experience LSD clutch chatter with the Redline 75W90NS. Transaxle behavior varies a little even on identical models so might require some experimentation with different oil brands/types to find what works best for you.
According to the oil scientist in the video linked below, be careful of adding more zddp to what's already in motor oil. Could be quickly detrimental.
Liqui moly MoS2, use it in the Ferrari's and classic Mercedes. Looks like used oil due to the additives but is great for flat tappet. Shell rotella diesel T4 is excellent as well.
3600 ppm ZDDP is ridiculous. I like his conclusion that you shouldn't add a boatload of a ZDDP additive, but (as he stated) oils are limited to 1200 ppm maximum and most are 800 ppm or so -- and he said nothing about how to decide within in that range. I just realized that the link I tried to post doesn't link, but if you search on "Mobil 1 Engine Oil Product Guide" you can get some real world data for their products. I note that their "high performance euro 0W40 oil" is 1000 ppm which is what I was targeting with 1/2 15W40 (1200 ppm) and 1/2 10W40 (800 ppm).
I use these in my solid lifter Benz 1973 450sl…… Valvoline Premium Blue Heavy Duty Diesel Oil 15W-40 / Shell Rotella T4 Triple Protection 15W-40
ZDDP is an additive specifically for cam wear issues and some American cars specifically Chevrolet. Ferrari had an issue with cams back in the late 60's early 70s when they first switched to direct cam on bucket style cam gear. They fixed that problem and have not had one since. If you are not driving a V6 Dino or a Daytona concern over ZDDP is a wasted effort. Massive numbers have used that oil. It woks well. I prefer MTL or MT90 in the 308/328.
@rwbolt1 thanks for the video. @Steve Magnusson I found the guide thanks. I will give the Liqui moly MoS2 a try. My thinking was that both my X1/9 and the 308 have the original motors. So they were made when oils had a higher level of ZDDP. If they had been rebuilt I would just use a modern oil unless I had trouble. The Exige will keep getting ZDDP for now. The cam wipe was ugly. It does beg the question what is the right level of ZDDP for old cars with flat tappets.
"It does beg the question what is the right level of ZDDP for old cars with flat tappets." FWIW, some years back I rebuilt the 340 CID engine in my 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Formula S. I installed a slightly bigger cam (still hydraulic lifters) and 11;1 compression (OEM was 10.5:1). After the rebuild I put over 100k miles on the car before trading it for another old Mopar. I used synthetic oil and standard ethanol pump premium gas, never added anything to the fuel or oil. When I traded it at 100k+ miles (daily driver/trip-taker) it didn't require oil between changes and the no-lead gas didn't cause any problem with valve seats/valves. A compression test and a leakdown test - required for the trade - showed good readings for all cylinders. I'm not saying that lack of ZDDP is not an issue for some engines but it clearly wasn't for that one. But it did lead me to believe the issue is somewhat overstated...perhaps for the benefit of additive manufacturers. Frankly, adding anything to the oil seems a questionable practice since there is no way to know what the actual result might be. It seems to me entirely possible that you could be adversely affecting additives that are in the oil in the first place. To paraphrase an old saying, "just because a little bit [of ZDDP] is good doesn't mean a lot [of ZDDP] is better!" Re adding stuff...I will reluctantly admit that when I was very young and with my first car I believed the hype and added STP to the oil at every change. Hey, Richard Petty said I should!! (In later, and more experienced years, I discovered that sometimes (maybe often?) celebrities say they use something in ads that they actually don't.)
When ZDDP started being reduced a lot of us became very concerned. We stated using additives and searching out different oils. Now many years down the road especially those of us who see so many high performance cars that are thriving on ordinary off the shelf oils with no additives understand we were reacting to paranoia. In most instances its an unjustified concern. I have seen far too many 75 and up Ferrari engines do multiple hundreds of thousands of miles on plane Jane oil to give it a second thought. If it was a issue we would have known far before now. I pay a lot more attention to coolant and gear oil than I do motor oil.
A friend sent me this link. If anyone is interested https://www.castrol.com/en_us/united-states/home/products/our-brands/automotive/castrol-gtx-oils/gtx-classic.html
The data sheet for the Castrol GTX Classic: https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/65BA93F2341840AA8025867E0048DC59/$File/wepp-bybe5q.pdf Zinc 1300 ppm (1400 ppm max) Phosphorus 1200 ppm
As Rifledriver pointed out, the ZDDP is essentially a non-issue for our engines. I've been doing oil analysis on my car which runs a full synthetic, current SP rated oil that only has around 800PPM of Zinc and 630PPM of Phosphorus. Wear metals are still super low.
One problem with that claim is that the ZDDP concentrations in motor oils have been reduced compared to "some years back" (mostly for catalytic converter reasons, not mechanical wear reasons) so without knowing the specifications for the oil that you were using... Won't argue that the additive makers have monetary reasons to push additives, but, if ZDDP wasn't needed at all, I'm sure the oil manufacturers would be happy to leave it out completely.
Anyone have opinions (haha) on Valvoline VR1 racing oil? High zinc content. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
Very similar to the Castrol GTX Classic: https://sharena21.springcm.com/Public/Document/18452/459c4af5-03ba-ed11-b81d-48df3793b338/def13d07-04ba-ed11-b81d-48df3793b338 Maybe on a flat tappet, high-lift cam, big valve spring situation, but not a normal street car with cats -- JMO This article (based on an SAE study) has a reasonable discussion about ZDDP/ZDTP levels and how it changed over the years -- 1200ppm in 1992 (SH), 1000ppm in 1996 (SJ), and 800ppm in 2004 (SM): https://www.speedwaymotors.com/the-toolbox/zinc-additive-for-oil-how-much-zddp-is-enough/32478
Also in lake speeds tutorial on oil additives is to NOT add additives to your oil as you don't know the chemistry of the oil additive package and that of the secondary market additives and that there could be adverse effects. Watch lake speeds you tube offerings they are really good and his conclusions are based on scientific facts not opinions. Cuts out the wives tales bs.
As for transaxle lube. This goes back appx 25 years ago. There was a big controversy on which to use, redline mtl or ns. The opinions were all over the place. This was for use in the fiat x19 5speed boxes. I was warned out possible problems with the ns bby an x racer. I got tired of each proponents unsubstTianed arguments. SO.... I called the owner of red line. Told him of the controversy on which to use and he said because the fiat box utilizes the Porsche style synchro that I should NOT use the ns, it is too slippery and not good for that style synchro over the long term. Will work fine at first but problems will appear later. He said to use the mtl with those style synchro. So i did and also put it in my gt4. I seem to remember it also has Porsche style syncros..... you'll have to confirm this yourself. The funny thing was when I posted his reply I got all sorts of flack. I posted back, who are you going to believe the owner of the company who's reputation is on the line or those retailers out there trying to sell you their stock. In the gt4 I noticed smoother shifts almost immediately and all these years later no degradation. Don't take my word, this is my experience....contact recline and talk with them, hopefully they are still as nice as they were back then.
Perhaps part of what muddy the water is that most of these cars don’t get a lot of miles put on them to see real long term results.
That's what I've been using in my 3.2 Mondial for the past 9 years, I was advised to do so by Tim Stanford, probably one of the best known Ferrari mechanics/experts in the US, just had a major service done, Tim said all the internal parts of the engine looked great so I'm sticking with that. Alden
Interesting, since it doesn’t seem recommended for cars with cats if I read that sheet correctly. I use it in my bugeye, but that car would probably be fine with paraffin. [emoji23] My 308 is non cat with P6 cams, etc. so it might be a good choice. It currently has Redline 50WT. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
The cat on my car, while still in place, has been gutted=no cat. This was done to get better sound from the exhaust without replacing the entire thing, and I'm very happy with it! Alden
Removed the cat on both the x19 and the gt4 75/90 mtl in both, technically the gt4 had a thermal reactor. With the slow down warning lights when they got too hot.
