Troubleshooting Mondial that won't start | FerrariChat

Troubleshooting Mondial that won't start

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by robogeeks, Dec 26, 2012.

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  1. robogeeks

    robogeeks Karting

    Sep 15, 2012
    112
    #1 robogeeks, Dec 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hello everybody, we are new Ferrari owners, we bought an 87 Mondial 3.2 Cab in September, and unfortunately we seem to be having some of the typical problems experienced by Mondial owners. When we got the car everything worked except the AC, unfortunately, since then the car is no longer starting.

    So far we have done the following (pictures below):

    - New relays and Stabilant on all relays and fuses, per advice found on f-chat. This got the AC working, at that point everything worked, but after a couple of days it wouldn’t start.

    - Checked battery, it was an old, crappy battery that you had to open and put water in, that worked once; after that I replaced the battery with a top of the line Die Hard (just replacing the battery was an ordeal). Car started fine……..for a while.

    - W connector was brown and black at the fuel pump and AC connections, so we installed female blade type connectors. This corrected the problem for a few weeks, the car started fine and everything worked, we thought we were in the clear, until it stopped starting again.

    - During the time that everything was working we did some work on the center console. We replaced the lighter with a much better power socket from Pep Boys, and we replaced the ridiculous fiber optic lighting system with 3 mm LEDs, the center console now lights up great, but it apparently is damaged or dirty, as evident in the pictures below (any advice on how to fix that? Or do we have to replace the panel? Rather fix it if possible; new panel at ricambi.com is over $300).

    - Opened up fuse box, circuit board is delaminating all over the place, tried hardwiring some of the circuits per info found on f-chat, but it didn’t help. Ordered new board from G.T. Car Parts from Phoenix. Received new board, but it still doesn’t start.

    - Another of the connections on the W connector came off, and the connector itself started crumbling apart because the plastic had become brittle where it burned, so I replaced all the W connections with female blade type connectors, still won’t start.

    - At this point everything else works, AC, lights, power socket, LEDs, windows (rear ones slow and noisy, but we will deal with that later), we can hear the pump running and the engine turns over strong, but it just won’t start.

    - The next things I am thinking of doing is checking for spark and that I am actually getting fuel from the injectors, and perhaps checking all ground connections. Any other advice or suggestions? At this point we are at a loss; we don’t know what else to do.

    We are still very happy that we bought the car, how many people can say they own a Ferrari, and it has been almost as much fun to work on it as it is to drive it, but at this point we are a little frustrated.
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  2. peterdavid911

    peterdavid911 Formula 3

    Apr 9, 2012
    1,339
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    Peter
    Hi and welcome to the Mondial family.
    Don't be too disillusioned from the problems because when you get it going it's an incredible experience!
    I too have an 87 3.2 Mondial and experienced some running problems when I first bought it, mainly due to lack of use and storage over many years.
    Initially it ran very rough and kept backfiring. By researching here on F Chat with some fantastic members, the first thing to is to check with a timing gun if you have a consistent spark to each cylinder.
    Mine had 4 out of 8 cylinders receiving spark. I changed all 8 spark plugs, all 8 ignition leads including the lead from each distributor to each of the 2 ignition coils, all 8 spark plug extenders, the tdc sensor and it solved the stalling and back firing but still ran rough.
    The next important parts were the ignition coil modules which are the black plug looking items that sit on top of each ignition coil. Bingo! Problem solved and was amazing. After a few weeks it would not start at all. I had installed a new heavy duty battery and it would crank very strongly but just would not start at all.
    All electrics were fine so at this point sounds like your problem you describe. I removed and replaced the relays and fixed the problem. It was the fuel injector pump relay.
    Since then it has been running perfectly and more to the point it now starts exactly as described in the Mondial handbook which states to depress the clutch then turn the key without touching the accelerator. And it does exactly that, I never touch the accelerator and it cranks for a second or two and fires up.
    Not sure if any of this will help but is worth knowing some of the more common starting and running problems.
    I do have a question for you, I am in the process of trying to improve the center console lighting. Do you have pics or a supplier for the led lights you installed and how you did it

    Many thanks and hope you get on the road soon!

    Peter.
     
  3. robogeeks

    robogeeks Karting

    Sep 15, 2012
    112
    #3 robogeeks, Dec 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hello Peter, thanks for the quick response.

    I am going to check a few of the items you mentioned for the starting problem, thanks for the advice. When the car started it started quickly and ran perfect, smooth and strong, so I hope it’s just a minor electrical problem.

    As far as the LEDs, it was a very simply upgrade. When I first opened the center console to see why the backlighting wasn’t working I saw the fiber-optic lines, and realize it was working, it just is not effective at all. I measured the width of the fiber-optic wires and they are 2.97mm in diameter, so I decided to see if 3mm LEDs fit in the holes under the cover and in the clips, and they did. So I ordered 12 prewired (with resistors) LEDs from lighthouseleds.com, it was only about $13, so it’s a cheap fix.

    If you follow the fiber-optic lines you will get to what looks like a metal tube about 5cm (2 inches) in length, at the front of this tube are the f-o wires, and at the back is a receptacle with a light bulb. Two wires come out the back and go to a white connector. I unplugged this connector, and removed the tube, which removes the whole f-o system. I then cut the wires as close to the light bulb as I could, and installed female insulated connectors on them. I then connected two red wires to one male connector, and two black wires to another male connector, and put connectors at the other end of all those wires. I then reconnected the white connector.

    You will need eight LEDs. I made two sets, one with three, and one with five. I connected them in parallel, with all the red wires going to one connector, and all the black wires to another connector. The reason I made two is because under the cover the temperature control module is very large, and basically divides the area in two sections, and since the wire leads on the LEDs are not very long it made sense to make a set for the right and one for the left. Once the two are done, just connect the LED connectors to the connectors coming from the car.

    Next put the LEDs through the metal cover, and put the LEDs in the same clips that held the f-o wires, they don’t fit perfectly, so I used small strips of gorilla tape to hold them in place, I may change that to a small dab of hot glue. Then clip them to the top plastic cover and put everything back together. It took me several tries to get it done because the clips kept getting detached; it just took a little time to get the hang of it.

    The whole thing took about an hour and as you can see it works great. I have posted a bunch of pictures below, they are not great, but I hope they help.

    Thanks for your encouragement, we have found and incredible community on f-chat, and we look forward to many years of Ferrari ownership.
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  4. peterdavid911

    peterdavid911 Formula 3

    Apr 9, 2012
    1,339
    London, UK
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    Peter
    Thanks very much for the helpful description for the LED lights, sounds like a great fix.
    Any luck on starting the car yet?
    Peter
     
  5. Valenzo

    Valenzo F1 Veteran

    Dec 4, 2010
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    Ted
    Wow, this needs to be a write up and a sticky because this is definitely a let down situation for us Mondial zealots. We were just talking about this problem, no one had a good solution. Bravo. Of course, im too chicken to try.

    Can you show us a pic with the panel in place and the lights on?
     
  6. robogeeks

    robogeeks Karting

    Sep 15, 2012
    112
    #6 robogeeks, Dec 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I am glad you guys like this fix, it really works great, I have posted a couple of pictures below. The pictures were taken with the garage lights off and no flash, so you can clearly see the LEDs work great. Valero, I am new to f-chat, so I don’t know what you mean by a write-up and a sticky, but if it would help I would be glad to create them. Notice that unfortunately now that the backlighting works it’s obvious there is something wrong with the panel, specifically the red and blue for the temperature control and the green for the fan. Eventually I will have to fix that, but it’s not really an urgent problem.

    It is really not that difficult, I just used standard crimp connectors, no soldering or any special skills are required, and the console cover comes off pretty easy. You don’t even need to separate the metal cover from the plastic one if you don’t want to, just clip the LEDs on while they are still together. Try it, even if you can’t get it to work right away it’s not like the fiber-optic system works anyhow, so you can’t make it any worse.

    This being Christmas season I have been very busy and haven’t had time to work on the car, which unfortunately means it still doesn’t start. I just fear I will reach the limits of my mechanical knowledge, and my nerve to take the car apart, it is a Ferrari after all, which means I will have to pay for a mechanic, something I would rather not do. I hope to have some time in the next few days to work on it, I’ll keep you posted.
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  7. jh355

    jh355 Formula Junior

    Feb 12, 2004
    424
    Halluci-Nation
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    Craven Morehead
    You have the dreaded White Wire of Doom, your only fix is to run a new wire, or install a 101 Bosch. Install the Bosch!!!
     
  8. robogeeks

    robogeeks Karting

    Sep 15, 2012
    112
    What is the white wire of doom? Where do I find it? Which part are you talking about when you say to install a 101 Bosch? I am willing to do both, run a new wire and install the Bosch, but what exactly are they?
     
  9. jh355

    jh355 Formula Junior

    Feb 12, 2004
    424
    Halluci-Nation
    Full Name:
    Craven Morehead
    The white wire of doom is the ignition / solenoid energize wire, it runs from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid. It runs through 2 bulk head multi connectors, and is nearly impossible to "re-wire" correctly (terminals are NLA) (which is why I suggest using the 101). What happens to the wire over time is the wire rots (because Ferrari didn't use tin coated wire) and the resistance of the wire increases causing a significant drop in voltage seen at the starter under load (something less than 9v). Unable to energize your starter properly, your starter will not function causing a no start condition. Improvements are seen each time a single component is replaced / repaired in the systems, but typically over a few weeks, the "no-start" condition returns (similar to what your experiencing). The fix is using a Bosch 101 relay, use the currently present white wire from the ignition switch to energize the 101 relay (you'll need a ground connection to complete the circuit), route another wire (18g) from the positive terminal (the one that goes to the battery) on the starter solenoid to the relay contact terminal and route another 18g wire from the other side of the contact to the "white" stake-on terminal on the solenoid. What your accomplishing is; the relay requires much lower voltage and amperage to close the contacts delivering your starter the desired 12v of needed love, doing this while acknowledging the degraded condition of the white wire of doom. This is Mondial lesson 101 of happy motoring.
     
  10. LouB747

    LouB747 Formula 3

    Apr 8, 2009
    2,123
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    Lou Boyer
  11. robogeeks

    robogeeks Karting

    Sep 15, 2012
    112
    #11 robogeeks, Dec 28, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks everybody for your advice. Actually, the car turns over very strong, so I don’t think it’s a starter problem, it just won’t catch, basically it feels like it’s either not getting fuel or spark. However, the fix for the starter problem sounds like a very good upgrade, so I think I will do it anyhow later. I was going over in my head when this problem started, and I realized it started right about the same time that I fixed the center console. There is a small red LED at the top of the console that appears to be from an aftermarket security system (see picture below), could I inadvertently have triggered an ignition cut off of some sort when I opened up the console? Has anybody ever run into a similar problem? Hopefully I will have time to work on the car next week, so I am trying to come up with as many possibilities as possible, so when I do have time to work on it I can check all of them until I find the culprit.
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  12. peterdavid911

    peterdavid911 Formula 3

    Apr 9, 2012
    1,339
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    Peter
    Hi, take a look at this thread I started not long ago when I had the exact same problem.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385893

    You will see that I had exact same issue as you. I removed the center switch panel to try and improve the useless fibre optics lights as you have found out. I had to disconnect the alarm led which is in the same position as yours in that switch panel and that's when my no start problem began. I even called the alarm fitter who was still in business after all these years and also specialist auto electricians. Everyone said my alarm was the issue and to get rid of it as its very complex.
    Anyway, I tested all cylinders and all had spark. I recommend you do this first to ensure your coils and coil modules are working correctly. What I did next as you will see in my thread was to simply remove and replace my 2 fuel relays (see thread for reference numbers of relays).
    For whatever reason the car then started perfectly and exactly as written in the owners handbook which states to press the clutch and turn the ignition key without pressing the accelerator. It's been consistent ever since and I don't really know what caused the problem in the first place. Maybe the relays reset themselves when I disconnected them then put them back.
    Try and see what happens. I also had a very strong crank as it was a new battery so I guessed it was fuel starvation and I was right.

    Good luck!
     
  13. robogeeks

    robogeeks Karting

    Sep 15, 2012
    112
    Eureka!! The car is starting perfectly, the only problem is that I don’t why. So now I don’t know why it stopped working, and I don’t know why it started working again. I am pretty sure it was lack of fuel at start up, but before I could check for spark or anything else it started working. As I mentioned in my first post we had already put brand new relays and a new fuse box from G.T. Car parts, we had also checked all the electrical outputs out of the fuse box and they were fine, but before I could check anything else it started working. I am hoping it was the security system that somehow reset itself, or a bad or intermittent ground, so I am going to take the car to a reputable alarm shop and have the whole system removed, and perhaps install a really good new system so we can start using the car regularly and park it with peace of mind, and I am also going to start looking at all the grounding points and making sure they are all ok. In the meantime it’s time to work on the windows and maybe the entertainment system. We need the car in perfect working order as soon as possible, because we have decided to join the festivities at Mondipalooza, and we are hoping to bring the car.

    So thank you everybody for your help, advice, and encouragement; we took the car out today with the top down, what a blast!!
     
    350HPMondial likes this.
  14. peterdavid911

    peterdavid911 Formula 3

    Apr 9, 2012
    1,339
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    Peter
    Well done that's great!
    Exact same issues as I had when I removed that led alarm light. I messed about with removing and replacing the 2 fuel relays and as yours did it started straight away but better now than ever. I too didn't know why or how but enjoy and wish I could join you folks at the Mondipalooza from across the pond here in the UK:)

    Have fun!
     
  15. robogeeks

    robogeeks Karting

    Sep 15, 2012
    112
    Oh well, here we go again, the car is not starting. To me this confirms the fact that the problem is electrical, a bad or intermittent connection somewhere. Since the car turns over strong, and it runs perfectly and smoothly when it starts, I decided to check the cold start valve. I am getting less than 10 volts at the cold start valve, does anybody know if that is enough to activate it? The positive connection should come straight out of the fuse box, so the loss of power should be on the ground side, that’s my next area to investigate. Any other suggestions?
     
  16. peterdavid911

    peterdavid911 Formula 3

    Apr 9, 2012
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    Peter
    It also happened to me again last week and we seem to have the same problems.
    The first time around I removed the 2 fuel relays R and S in your handbook. I simply sprayed some electrical contact cleaner on them and onto the fuse board and put them back on and was perfect until last week.
    So I did the same again and sure enough it's perfect once more. I ordered new relays yesterday to replace them, mine are the original metal based Bosch ones that are now plastic cases.
    Try removing and replacing first and let us know how you get along
    Mine also cranked very strongly but just would not start.

    Cheers.
     
  17. robogeeks

    robogeeks Karting

    Sep 15, 2012
    112
    #17 robogeeks, Jan 24, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks for all your encouragement and advice Peter, unfortunately no happy news to report, the car still doesn’t start. I pulled the cold start valve and cranked the engine over while pointing it into a bucket and it works fine. I also pulled one spark plug to check for spark, there was spark, but it didn’t seem very strong, it wasn’t a nice steady blue, so I think I am going to change them, I am thinking of using NGK Iridium IX Spark Plugs (DR8EIX), does anybody suggest any others? I am also posting a couple of pictures, one is of three relays that we found under the dashboard, we put new ones just in case, but we couldn’t find them in the wiring diagrams; my wife finally found them in the wiring diagram for an 88 Mondial, apparently they are for the ABS brakes, can anybody confirm this? The other picture is for a little box we found under the front hood, it has an LED light that never lights up, and what looks like a small adjustment screw, and it appears to be connected only to the negative side of the battery, we can’t figure out what it is, does anybody recognize it?
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  18. abignami

    abignami Karting

    May 20, 2010
    76
    Milano, Italy
    Full Name:
    Alessandro Bignami
    Hi, as some of you know I'm (still) only a wanna be owner (working on wife to upgrade (I hope) to owner) but I read often the forum and, sometimes, I try to give an idea or a suggestion (hoping that this not too presumptuous from me).

    Anyway I read this thread and I feel like asking you:
    1) Have you checked if the injectors make that "injector sound" when you crank the engine? (something like "chif chif")
    2) Have you checked if fuel arrives at the injectors (and cylinders)?
    3) Have you checked fuel filters on the lines (if fitted)? A dirty filter can prevent fuel to arrive where it's necessary.

    Maybe you have some issue with the fuel pumps working intermittently due to deterioration of the pumps themselves.

    I found this thread (it's for a T but there are references to a 3.2. too) that explains some troubles (and how they were solved) regarding the car not running properly. Maybe it can help you.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/mondial/339405-error-4121-crazy-stuff-6.html
    (I post the link to the page where they speak about pumps, but it's interesting from page 1).

    I hope that I didn't say obvious things or, worse, silly things :D

    BTW, nice job with the led in the center console, some time ago I suggested the same thing but, being only a probable future owner, I couldn't do the work for real: you read my mind :D :D Nice job!
    Regards,
    Alessandro
     
  19. jgoodman

    jgoodman F1 Rookie
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    Aug 29, 2009
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    #19 jgoodman, Jan 25, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Alarm? Here's my 87. That thing is not present.
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  20. mulo rampante

    mulo rampante Formula Junior

    May 31, 2011
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    Charles
    #20 mulo rampante, Jan 25, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
    I think it's an alarm component too. The screw appears to be a zinc plated pan head sheet metal screw... not the sort of thing Ferrari commonly uses.

    I'd guess that it is a motion sensor, the screwdriver adjustment is for the sensitivity, and the LED indicates when it senses motion (for set-up). One wire, and it's ground? See if it is physically tied to a ground point on the car or if it goes somewhere else. If it is a sensor then it may work by momentarily grounding a line that is then sensed by the alarm controller.

    Given the other evidence of an alarm system, I'd carefully examine it to see how it is supposed to work, and then remove it, while setting things back to normal. (i.e. see if it work on fuel, spark or something else and then make sure the wiring is back to what Ferrari intended). If it was my car I'd lose that stuff.

    Sorry, nothing to say about your other comments... I have no experience with a 3.2. I do know my QV has three relays under the dash for climate control... don't have ABS here though so I know nothing about it.

    Another thought: That wire coming out of the box with the LED looks to be pretty large dia. Might be a bunch of individual conductors in there under that outer jacket.
     
  21. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
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    #21 soucorp, Jan 25, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    +1 spot on.
    The LED black box is your alarm's motion sensor. (see pic)
    Also, the relays under the dash is for climate control, not ABS braking.

    88 3.2 came with standard ABS while 87 were optional so check to see if you have ABS, look in the front hood to the right. (see diagram)

    Not sure if your alarm is causing your starting problems but I would take it out and make sure you have a good ground connection.
    You'll be surprised how a loose ground cable to/from battery, fuse box, engine block, starter could have you pulling your hair out !

    best
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  22. Frank_007

    Frank_007 Rookie

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  23. Frank_007

    Frank_007 Rookie

    Aug 8, 2022
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    Frank Van Ransbeeck
    Hello Robo Greeks,

    When i switch on the ignition keys, the LED light jump on and jump off immediately. I have connection but not continuity. What could be the problem? I am not an electrician, but I am open to learn.

    Thanks in advance.

    Regards Frank
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  24. 350HPMondial

    350HPMondial F1 Veteran
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    Feb 1, 2002
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    Edwardo
    Sounds like a none functioning ground.
    1- Check. ohm’s to ground,, also, check ground connection.
    2- Check battery ground cable,, check stoopid ,, battery disconnect switch.
     
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  25. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,828
    Isle of man- uk
    What is coming on when you turn the key ? I have the electrical drawings for the euro 3.2 mondial
     

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