I know this issue is discussed in various threads but usually as an aside. This week I had the tanks pulled out of the '84 and pressure tested at the local RV repair garage. As hoped, holes were located, all in the passenger side tank. There were 3 pin holes in the bottom and 1 pencil lead sized hole in a 3 sided corner at the bottom. These have all been patched with a two part, Mil-Spec'ed, aricraft fuel tank sealer used on the outside of the tank. The gauge of the aluminum sheet used to fabricate the tanks is quite thin making the tanks very light. I suspect this also makes the tank bottom prey to condensation collecting as water and sinking to the bottom to just sit there. Then add long storage periods and, voila! leaks. I hope this rids the trunk of the smell. I am also replacing all the carpet pad cushions supporting the tanks because they have soaked up fuel and also stink. Greg
A thorough and imaginative fix to a common problem. Would you be able to pass along the Mil spec sealant employed. It might be helpful to others. Thanks Greg.
This patching compound is made by Flamemaster and is called "CS 3204 Class B Aircraft Fuel Tank Sealant". The paperwork says it meets MIL-S-8802F. The distributor and packager of this stuff is Located in Sun Valley, CA. Phone; 818-982-1650, Fax; 1-818-765-5603. I got mine from Van's Aircraft Supply in Oregon for @ $32.00 the quart.. For those unfamiliar with Mil-Specs: these are stringent specifications produced by the US Military to ensure that what they buy is what the salesman claimed it to be. Most SAE Standards began life as Mil-Specs. Greg
I've heard countless stories of alum. tanks in boats going south because of ethanol, & we all know that our tanks are alum.. & some of us store our cars from time to time (winter, travel, etc.), even the German collector stores all of his 8-365-412's during the winter. Ethanol & alum. just don't mix...plain & simple! http://pure-gas.org/
Neither does water and aluminum. Aluminum has an "affinity" for water so pronounced that welding aluminum in humid climates requires special handling of the material. Just parking the car for a few months when the humidity and temperature vary greatly will cause condensation in the tanks. This water sinks to the bottom and goes to work. I don't think we can blame ethanol alone for this plague. Greg
Gregg, this is what I was referring to, & it'll occur in less than a few months. It's the inherent characteristics of ethanol that 'are to blame'. This is got to be why these pin holes are occuring. If you are going to use oxygenated fuels, you must drive it all the time & keep the fuel fresh. These guys put 3 months as a maximum for shelf life, they're talking engine related problems. Throw alum. into the mix, you're playing Russian roulette if you go that distance. That .5% equals 10 oz. of water per 16 gal. of fuel (the size of each of our tanks). If you're going to park it, don't use enthanol fuel. B. http://www.fuel-testers.com/expiration_of_ethanol_gas.html They start out w/this... Image Unavailable, Please Login
Thank you for the update! The problem is worse than I thought. I did learn the hard way last summer, that ethanol fuel boils at @ 170 F. I learned it in traffic on a 100 F day outside Kansas City when the engine quit. I'd made the mistake of filling up with "premium" in Iowa. In Iowa "premium" = 15% ethanol. So, the problem has more than one fascet, Greg
I did that about a year ago. The fuel sender gasket was hard aas a rock and leaked profusely. I thought I had it beat but the smell continued at a lower rate. Having read the Fuel Testers report posted above it appears to me that we have a full time job keeping water out of these aluminum tanks. Here in Missouri 91 Premium contains zero ethanol so that is easy. When on the road I'll just have to plan fuel stops to avoid fueling in Iowa. Greg
I recently started using Lucas fuel additive made to stabilize ethanol fuels (green bottle). By directions you do not add much to each tank full. Does anyone know how effective this product is? Lucas has made enough money to build a stadium but I don't know if that is marketing or product. I drive my car a lot and hope that is the answer for me. Ken
In the US there are enthanol free gas stations. If you go on line I believe the web site is Clearfuel.com. I'm lucky enough to have a clear fuel station 5 miles from my home. I always store my Ferrari's for the winter with ethanol free fuel due to separation in a static situation. Our idoit governor is now trying to up the ehtnaol % from 10 to 20, with little or no regard to alumimum fuel tanks in both cars and boats. Our local airport is now adding eithanol to aircraft fuel causing issues issues with rubber goods and bladder tanks. Ethanol is really just a financial vehicle for our farmers to grow and sell a product to the masses, foisted on us by our government, and of couse adding to our fuel and food costs. Interesting enough, Gates the rubber company has a rubber fuel hose that they admit does not work well with enthanol fuel. No one has solved the ethanol fuel issue yet, and of course no one will admit to the problem. It will be interesting to see how the 1000's of boats manufactured from the 70's with aluminum tanks sealed in the bilge with no access or avenue of repair, fair over the years with enthanol. My guess is we are only seeing the tip of the problem. Howard Musolf 1981 308gtsi 1982 400i Cabriolet 1988 Lotus Esprit Turbo 1920's-30's Indy cars 2 many brass era cars.
Hagerty's view (collector car ins. co.) was pretty similar... "So why the rush to ethanol? At the top of the list, legislators find helping farmers and offering an alternative to our foreign oil sources to be both popular and patriotic keys to being re-elected." Hagerty also went on to say "The Renewable Fuels Association & Environmental Protection Agency (both organizations who promote ethanol) acknowledge that using gasoline containing ethanol in older vehicles requires additional and sometimes costly measures." Their conclusion... "The results from the tests...suggest that E10 can be used in older vehicles, although the owner is likely to be faced with the additional costs associated with sealing fuel tanks and cleaning and rebuilding fuel systems more frequently than in the past." For their complete "Ethanol: Demonic or Devine?" article, refer to... http://www.hagerty.com/classic-car-articles-resources/Magazine/Special-features/All-Articles/2007/01/28/~/link.aspx?_id=E4F378984C504C9692CB61B486FC9499&_z=z
I had no idea that reporting a means of repair would open Pandora's Ehtanol Box like this! For what it is worth to know, I had asked the Por-15 guys about their tank sealer which they said was just super. It was just super until I mentioned aluminum. Then they said their internal sealant is "not recommended for use in alumimun tanks". I did not set out to find a space age Bondo but a friend who has built some airplanes put me onto this potion. At $32.00 a quart we could afford cover whole tanks and forget about the aluminum. What do all y'all think is going on inside those aluminum looking fuel injection distributors? Greg
Both tanks in my 308 were rotted through due to previous owner and ethnaol. After removing the tanks I found due to the internal baffels it would be nearly an impossibility to pour the sealer inside and get it down through the baffels and coating the inside bottom of the tank. I'm guessing the 400 has the same baffel set up. My fix for the 308 was to use my english wheel and form fit a second bottom to the original tanks. Then scrape and sand the exterior coating from the tanks, sand blast the bottoms then heliarc the new bottom panels over the old tank bottoms. Then we tested the tanks with air first then fuel, keep in mind that the molecular structure of fuel is much smaller than water, so fuel will find a smaller pin hole. Howard Musolf 1981 308gtsi 1982 400i Cabriolet 1988 Lotus Esprit Turbo
My exploded IPB is down in FL so don't have it handy + can't remember exactly. Larry would know, he rebuilds these & warm up regs. for a living. He's posted here before to give him a call & he'll give you all the specs & part # cross-overs. Larry Fletcher CIS Flow Tech Llc. 251-929-3771
URL changed to... http://www.hagerty.com/classic-car-articles-resources/Magazine/Articles/All-Articles/2009/03/02/Ethanol-Demonic-or-Devine
No they aren't, not intentionally. No one, at any airport would allow Ethanol laced fuel into their fuel tanks for fueling planes. Ever.
8802 is used for all kinds of repairs on aircraft. But on the aircraft I worked on I never used it on a fuel cell, our fuel cells are self sealing.
Not sure if you are looking for pure gas, or that fuel hose. If you are looking for straight gas here are a few dozen: http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=MI
Aircraft are certified for using mogas(auto fuel) without any Ethanol. The reasons are many, and have to do with materials, performance, separation, settling, hydroscopic affinity, etc. Many aircraft have natural rubber fuel bladders, and they don't like Ethanol at all.
Just FYI.. plenty of pure gas non ethanol stations in Oklahoma. Sinclair, most Conoco stations and privately owned stations are non ethanol. Most people here seem to hate ethanol which is good for us! In OKC, I have 6 or 8 stations around town that I use depending on where I am when the cars are low.
