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Turbo F1 vs top fuel dragster engines

Discussion in 'F1' started by Bob308GTS, Apr 2, 2004.

  1. Bob308GTS

    Bob308GTS Formula 3

    Sep 26, 2001
    1,125
    Aurora,IL
    Full Name:
    Bob Campen
    At their peak, it was said the turbo F1 engines in qualifying form were putting out 1500 hp, from 90 cubic inches. to put things in perspective that is equal to if not greater hp per cubic inch than a current top fuel dragster, and these engines had to run for more than 5 seconds!!!!
     
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  3. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,658
    Correct, the F1 engines produced similar power per displacement figures, but had to last 200 miles in race trim (closer to 900 HP in race trim and 1300 HP in qualifying), and had to do this on a fuel that had to register 104? octane. The fuel ended up to be Tolulene and xylene (85% total) and some heptane to bring the measured octane rating back to 104 while the concoction ran more like 114 octane under racing conditions (e.g. above 4000 RPMs.) The Honda power plant used exhaust gasses to preheat the fuel for better attomization when injected into the compressed air stream.

    They also blew up with similar regularity as top fuel drag engines, although the rebuild times wer a lot longer than 45 minutes.......
     
  4. AnotherDunneDeal

    AnotherDunneDeal F1 Veteran

    Jun 2, 2003
    5,308
    N.Richland Hills, Tx
    Full Name:
    James Dunne
    And remember that the top fuel engines still run the old overhead valve engines, not overhead cam. The only time I ever saw a top fuel car with overhead cam engine was back in I believe 1968/69 when one was run using the Ford 428 DOHC engine that they developed for drag racing back then. If I am not mistaken, I believe it was Connie Kalitta who tried it. It may have been someone else, I have slept twice since then.

    The OHV engine is old technology. I am sure it it was OHC, the HP output could be increased and RPMs increased but the tires would probably not be able to take any increased load from what todays engines are doing. Also, the clutch packs would become highly suspect for damage at any increased power or RPM increase.
     
  5. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,658
    Well, with 65 PSI of pressure out of the blower and the load of nitro-methane mixture, the mixture compressed to 6:1 is almost hydrodynamically locked. Since each cylinder is filled to the hydro-locking point, more exotic valve technology could not possibly put any more fuel mixture into the cyclinders. Since flow is not restricting engine output, simpler OHV is better.
     
  6. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2004
    2,870
    Bakersfield, CA
    Full Name:
    Payne
    OHV would still decrease revs though...right?
     
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  8. AnotherDunneDeal

    AnotherDunneDeal F1 Veteran

    Jun 2, 2003
    5,308
    N.Richland Hills, Tx
    Full Name:
    James Dunne
    True, but by using the 5 valve OHC technology, it is not increased fuel being introduced into the combustion chambers but more oxygen, meaning an even stronger burn. I do not see how more could be compressed into the engine but increasing rpms to 14,000 instead of the 9,500 they do now could really produce some unreal sounds and most probably some unreal explosions also.

    I wonder if they can produce a bottom end strong enough to withstand something like that???
     
  9. KMS

    KMS Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Dec 22, 2003
    257
    Can the HP of a Top Fuel Dragster even be measured?
     
  10. slashmatt

    slashmatt Rookie

    Feb 7, 2004
    17
    top fuel dragsters put out in the neighborhood of 5000hp.
     
  11. Old Guy

    Old Guy Formula Junior
    Honorary

    Dec 1, 2003
    438
    No longer here
    The original source is the following is unknown -- I got it from Michael Sheehan.


    Fun for Gearheads everywhere...

    Subject: The definition of acceleration.


    * One Top Fuel dragster 500 cubic inch Hemi engine makes more
    horsepower than the first 4 rows at the Daytona 500.


    * Under full throttle, a dragster engine consumes 1-1/2 gallons of
    nitro methane per second; a fully loaded 747 consumes jet fuel at the
    same rate with 25% less energy being produced.


    * A stock Dodge Hemi V8 engine cannot produce enough power to
    drive the dragster supercharger.


    * With 3000 CFM of air being rammed in by the supercharger on
    overdrive, the fuel mixture is compressed into a near-solid form
    before ignition. Cylinders run on the verge of hydraulic lock at
    full throttle.

    * At the stoichiometric (stoichiometry: methodology and technology
    by which quantities of reactants and products in chemical reactions
    are determined) 1.7:1 air/fuel mixture for nitro methane the flame
    front temperature measures 7050 degrees F.

    * Nitro methane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen
    above the stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from
    atmospheric water vapor by the searing exhaust gases.

    * Dual magnetos supply 44 amps to each spark plug. This is the
    output of an arc welder in each cylinder.


    * Spark plug electrodes are totally consumed during a pass. After
    ½ way, the engine is dieseling from compression plus the glow of
    exhaust valves at 1400 degrees F. The engine can only be shut down
    by cutting the fuel flow.

    * If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro
    builds up in the affected cylinders and then explodes with
    sufficient force to blow cylinder heads off the block in pieces or
    split the block in half.

    * In order to exceed 300 mph in 4.5 seconds dragsters must
    accelerate an average of over 4G's. In order to reach 200 mph well
    before half-track, the launch acceleration approaches 8G's.

    * Dragsters reach over 300 miles per hour before you have
    completed reading this sentence.


    * Top Fuel Engines turn approximately 540 revolutions from light
    to light!


    * Including the burnout the engine must only survive 900
    revolutions under load.


    * The redline is actually quite high at 9500rpm.


    * The Bottom Line; Assuming all the equipment is paid off, the
    crew worked for free, and for once NOTHING BLOWS UP, each run costs
    an estimated $1,000.00 per second.

    The current Top Fuel dragster elapsed time record is 4.441 seconds
    for the quarter mile (10/05/03, Tony Schumacher). The top speed
    record is 333.00 mph. (533 km/h) as measured over the last 66' of
    the run (09/28/03 Doug Kalitta).

    Putting all of this into perspective: You are driving the average
    $140,000 Lingenfelter "twin-turbo" powered Corvette Z06. Over a mile
    up the road, a Top Fuel dragster is staged and ready to launch down
    a quarter mile strip as you pass. You have the advantage of a flying
    start. You run the 'Vette hard up through the gears and blast across
    the starting line and past the dragster at an honest 200 mph.
    The 'tree' goes green for both of you at that moment. The dragster
    launches and starts after you. You keep your foot down hard, but you
    hear an incredibly brutal whine that sears your eardrums and within
    3 seconds the dragster catches and passes you. He beats you to the
    finish line, a quarter mile away from where you just passed him.
    Think about it, from a standing start, the dragster had spotted you
    200 mph and not only caught, but nearly blasted you off the road
    when he passed you within a mere 1320 foot long race course.

    That folks, is acceleration
     
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  13. Bob308GTS

    Bob308GTS Formula 3

    Sep 26, 2001
    1,125
    Aurora,IL
    Full Name:
    Bob Campen
    Just another comparison

    carb 308 180 cubic inch 210 hp 1.16 hp cu inch
    current F1 180 cubic inch 900 hp 5.0 hp cu inch
    top fuel 500 cubic inch 7000 hp 14 hp cu inch
    turbo F1 (max) 90 cubic inch 1400 HP 15.55 hp cu inch
     
  14. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,658
    Top fulers put out in the neighborhood of 6500-7000 HP, and 6000-6500 HP with the 90% nitromethane rules.

    But since these engines are <shall we say> self consuming the peak power is only producable for a couple of fractions of a second before the valves have been burned away and the engine is diesling down the track. Not good for sustained dynomomater runs.
     

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