Turbocharging my F355 - Or how to remove any market value from your F355 remaining. | Page 5 | FerrariChat

Turbocharging my F355 - Or how to remove any market value from your F355 remaining.

Discussion in '348/355' started by Markphd, Oct 23, 2015.

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  1. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jun 10, 2007
    6,708
    Lake Villa IL
    Well this should get interesting. How much back pressure does it need/how much back pressure makes the most power?
     
  2. gatorgreg

    gatorgreg Formula 3

    Dec 13, 2004
    1,915
    NAPLES
    #102 gatorgreg, Nov 9, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2015
    Sorry, I really don't know. All I can say is, it's working very well in race conditions. I just did three days at COTA and (2) 40 minute races. We also did testing at Homestead for 2 days. My times were very competitive and both cars ran perfect.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDyBsp_hf6o
     
  3. KMR968Turbo

    KMR968Turbo Formula 3

    Nov 11, 2007
    1,001
    Calgary, Alberta
    Full Name:
    Erik
    Does the larger diameter of the 360 challenge headers positively or negatively affect the 355 engine performance? Part of me says that larger should be better but then comes the question of exhaust velocity. My car dyno'd right around 290 RWHP with the current exhaust. Plus the exhaust sound is more baritone - less F1 - even at the upper RPM limit. If I go back to the 355 Challenge headers I am curious if the power will change or the sound will change.

    Maybe next year I will purchase a Capristo muffler and see if that changes things any.
     
  4. KMR968Turbo

    KMR968Turbo Formula 3

    Nov 11, 2007
    1,001
    Calgary, Alberta
    Full Name:
    Erik
    PS: Sorry for hijacking the thread but I find this discussion very interesting. :)
     
  5. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jun 10, 2007
    6,708
    Lake Villa IL
    Well enough. I'm glad what you have is working out for you, it may very well be optimal.

    Just saying that the reason your back pressure statement is not popular with "ferrari experts" is you are lacking data to back it up.

    I would bet you have zero or close to zero measured back pressure as it is.

    Erik, what size are the 360 challenge header primary/secondary/collector in comparison to stock F355?

    Only way to find out would be a back to back test. (and if I recall correctly your dyno run was chopped a bit short so a run to the limiter would be better as well)
     
  6. gatorgreg

    gatorgreg Formula 3

    Dec 13, 2004
    1,915
    NAPLES
    On the 355, I ran the Tubi headers with no issues. At the time aftermarket headers were not available. My focus was on the heat generated from the exhaust. It was melting the alternators on the race cars.
    I knew of other 355's producing more horsepower then mine and they used standard headers.
     
  7. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    No worries about a thread hijack... I was distracted and had to go visit a friend fighting cancer. So my mind was hijacked in dealing with that. Life happens... seems like from the standpoint of helping him cope with the situation that I was able to help.

    So back to the car. I got back just yesterday, and started looking at all the components that I am putting together for the build.... Much of the build is coming along nicely, albeit slowly due to financial constraints and my desire to address specific concerns that I have with the build. I certainly would not characterize it as a "low buck build" as I am doing some pretty interesting things with regard to how I plan to complete the build, but aspects of it are certainly not traditional.

    I started running the wiring harnesses today for the the megasquirt, innovate dual wide band O2 sensors/gauge, and 8 channel EGT amplifier which has 8 thermocouples (1 per cylinder). I will be using the Aerospace Logic gauge to monitor turbo inlet temperatures since it has two probes... and I simply have it lying around.

    The nice thing about the whole setup is the ability to quickly disconnect the entire motor from the chassis for major maintenance without having to fumble with pulling a harness through the firewall. This change to the wiring will prevent unnecessary wear and tear on the wiring harness and allow me to disconnect the entire motor with just a few connectors from the electronic control modules (looks like 2 (or 3) - 30 pin metri-pack connectors. I really like these connectors since they have proper bulkhead connectors, screw together, and are weather tight.

    So the show continues... I will start getting some pictures up as soon as I really have something to show. There are a lot of little moving pieces right now, but not so much action to document with regard to the build.

    Stupid things like the exhaust tips, muffler, v-band clamps, coils, injectors, and other little pieces are coming in. I'm waiting to get the heads back from the head builder soon. So it's just moving along.
     
  8. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
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    Yes, I am still re-engineering that which does not need re-engineering. No one really complains much about the power steering, generally speaking. To me however, it's just one more belt that gets in the way of other maintenance. The water pump however is notorious for failing.

    Solution. Goodbye to the factory power steering and water pumps. I have not decided on which electric water pump
    I will use, but the power steering pump was easy money. It's also just less parasitic drag on the engine by moving the water pump and power steering pump to the electric side of the house.

    Yes, I know, electric water pumps and power steering pumps don't work off free energy. Still, a number of good reasons exist to do this. Such as less cavitation at high RPM of the water pump.

    Enjoy the little update...

    Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
     
  9. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    Just some documentation for myself (as well as anyone else who wants to put a Megasquirt into a Ferrari - Unlikely, I know).

    Firing Order as we all know is 1-5-3-7-4-8-2-6
    Megasquirt fires it's injectors and ignition in alphabetical order.

    Injectors Configuration:
    Injector A -> Cylinder 1
    Injector B -> Cylinder 5
    Injector C -> Cylinder 3
    Injector D -> Cylinder 7
    Injector E -> Cylinder 4
    Injector F -> Cylinder 8
    Injector G -> Cylinder 2
    Injector H -> Cylinder 6

    Ignition Outputs:
    Ignition is using the AEM CDI as the ignitor
    Configured for waste spark with COP

    MS3PRO ECU Ignition Outputs to AEM CDI:
    Ign A - AEM Coil A In (Cylinders 1/4)
    Ign B - AEM Coil B In (Cylinders 5/8)
    Ign C - AEM Coil C In (Cylinders 3/2)
    Ign D - AEM Coil D In (Cylinders 7/6)

    AEM CDI Configuration, Connections to Power and COP:
    Switch one on for disable multistrike (initially)
    Switch two on for Falling Edge Trigger direct from ECU (5V logic signal)
    Switch three off for waste spark configuration
    AEM Large Red wire +12 Hot always (Fused 15 Amps)
    AEM Large Black wire Chassis Ground
    Red IGP wires (x2) to ignition power +12v switched

    Coil A (-) output COP 1 + 4 in parallel to AEM +540v Tan
    Coil B (-) output COP 5 + 8 in parallel to AEM +540v Pink
    Coil C (-) output COP 3 + 2 in parallel to AEM +540v Tan
    Coil D (-) output COP 7 + 6 in parallel to AEM +540v Pink

    8 Channel EGT monitor
    CAN BUS H to MS-PRO CAN BUS - H
    CAN BUS L to MS-PRO CAN BUS - L
    K type thermocouples
    Blue -
    Red +

    Power Steering pump wiring
    Large connector
    Pin 1 - Chassis Ground
    Pin 2 - 12V battery power fused

    Small connector
    Pin 1 - Ignition Power
    Pin 2 - to Alternator L terminal (probably not required)
    Pin 3 - Data Link (Fault wire) - Not Connected
     
  10. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    Simple stuff, just takes time. Drilling, tapping, and test fitting the individual cylinder EGT probes... No more guessing how well each cylinder is running, it is going to easy to identify a bad hole. I am also going to be monitoring the turbine inlet temperature. I think that many (if not most) of the turbo cars I have seen fail have had heat related issues with no means to even detect a problem (not even a wide band O2 sensor in some cases). The difference between sustainable exhaust temperatures and unsustainable exhaust temperatures is actually pretty narrow under full load when tuning for max power (and can be as little as 100 F). Having seen the failed header from my F355, I can only imagine how hot the exhaust must have been.... I will not be having a repeat of that experience.



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    Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
     
  11. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 14, 2011
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    SoCal LA/OC/New Mexico
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    Tim Dee
    Thats the only way to go Mark, looking good
     
  12. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 14, 2011
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    Tim Dee
    I like to check them out a bit more, not sure if they have enough fuel maps for my liking but I'm sure they can do 99% of whats needed here in SoCal

    I absolutely hate the 2.7 and 5.2 ecus
     
  13. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    They won't have any fuel maps for the Ferrari, that's pretty much a given, but I don't see that as being a huge hurdle if you are using a wide band O2 for tuning.

    The spark map is probably more challenging to get right without time on the dyno, but even there, start with 10 degrees base rising to about 24-25 degrees at 4000 RPM and figure it out from there.

    This is where having the EGT's is really valuable because tuning spark via EGT is fairly straightforward. You want the best possible power at the lowest EGT's. Since the Ferrari already has a thermocouple for each bank, a knock sensor for each bank, and a narrow band O2 on each bank you can tune fairly well even without any additional sensors.

    Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
     
  14. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 14, 2011
    8,629
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    Tim Dee
    Yeah I have the avionics tc 3 on one car and a second one to install on the 348CH
    HAve it on my diesel also. I like to keep each cyl separated except for the WB. that would be way too costly and maybe slow flow. It's not a bench dyno but closer to it the better :)
     
  15. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
    3,931
    CA and OR
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    pit bull
    Way cool thanks for sharing.

    I wiant to get rid of the motronic units and was thinking megasquirt but have talked myself into haltech for two reasons:

    1. I believe the dash units are plug and play.
    2. I've changed both my 308's over to efi that I run with older haltech units so I'm familiar with the software.

    Are you already familiar with megasquirt and tuner studio? Seems pretty solid... I think the dash interface really got me hot and bothered though :). You thought about a dash interface where u can look at all the ecu info? I luv that!

    Also fwiw I've been running MSD dis4 ignitions with denso cycle cops since 2006. They have been very reliable. You probably mentioned which cop's you're using somewhere in the thread?

    Cheers
     
  16. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    First, I don't believe that the Haltech is plug and play on the Ferrari, but I could be wrong... I haven't played with Haltech in a while (E6, E6X,and E11), but used to be a Haltech dealer, decent units in general and I have nothing bad to say about them. Despite that, my personal cars have not been Haltech powered (even though I thought them to be good units). In the past my personal cars used the electromotive TEC-III or other lesser systems (systems that I liked less than the Haltech). I have tuned Motec, Haltech, Electromotive, Link, AEM, and OEM ECU's (GM/Ford). So I have a fair amount of ECU experience and it should be telling that I decided to jump ship completely to the Megasquirt.

    I would say, if you are comfortable with the Haltech, I think that you won't feel intimidated by the Microsquirt. The Haltech is sufficiently complex that if you can master the E6, E6x, or E11 that running a Megasquirt will feel like home. There are more features on the Megasquirt, but it's done in a logical and sensible manner that allows you to grow into it. You don't have to start with all the features and "cool stuff" enabled to get the car running well... that said, you will eventually want to get those things figured out because they improve the driving experience (traction control, launch control, full throttle shifting, etc). I am going a bit overboard with individual cylinder temps, dual wide band O2 sensors, and dual knock sensors; however, one can get the motor running with just TPS (or MAF) and the cam/crank sensors. The Megasquirt was the right answer for me because I do my own tuning and my own work. I have read your COP thread to be sure and even referenced it when figuring out my own setup.

    I have a few dash options, I believe that I am going to be running the Racetek IQ3s Dash. Although I have a blue tooth interface and shadow dash on a tablet as an alternate. I really am loathe to remove the Ferrari gauges, but at the same time a digital dash with multiple screens, F1 style shift lights, and other features is appealing. I might use the IQ3s for tuning and then put the factory gauges back afterwards. It's not a big wiring job to swap dashes if wired ahead of time for both options.

    I am going to see how the GSXR-600 COP coils work (4400's), they should be pretty close to the right length. If not, I will figure it out along the way. There is a lot of work to do, but I enjoy this kind of stuff.
     
  17. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    I have a twin scroll T4, so each 2.5" inlet to the turbo will have an WB O2 sensor. They don't intrude into the pipe but are roughly flush with it (per innovate's instructions). It does kill me to intrude on the exhaust gas flow with the EGT sensors, but it's a cost benefit calculation... I would give up 20 HP to reduce the likelihood of hurting the motor by the margin that the EGTs probes will give me.

    I can always increase boost to make up for it. ;)
     
  18. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    I think that if you can straighten the flow path at the port you are more likely to find gains than if you increase the tube size at the port (with one notable caveat). The only reason that I can see increasing the pipe size at the port might help is if reversion into the exhaust port is an issue. If there is reversion occurring, then a larger tube at the port will help prevent reversion. Additionally, by removing the connection between the two banks, reversion could potentially be further reduced, but pipe lengths and pulse tuning issues may be very complicated across all 8 cylinders... the pulses will travel the path of least resistance regardless of what we want.
     
  19. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
    3,931
    CA and OR
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    pit bull
    I wasn't clear on my post ... the Haltech isn't plug and play as far as install goes ... it's the aftermarket dash setup that looked to be plug and play. I looked around briefly for documentation on the megasquirt for the dash setup and didn't see much, but that was a few months ago and I didn't dig that deep. Maybe it's some simple CANbus programming to get the dash working? ... the bottom line is I really want one of the aftermarket dash units to integrate to whatever ECU I run and didn't really want to make that a project. So is the megasquirt pretty simple to integrate with the aftermarket dash setups? It looked like a little over $1k savings between the megasquirt and Haltech package... which is essentially the price of the dash :).

    Also, what are you doing for electrical connections to the engine? Are you just going to cannibalize a factory harness or have you sourced plugs to make your own wiring harness?

    You're not overboard on all your EGT :).... I luv data.

    The other thing I wanted to integrate with whatever system I went with was data acquisition for suspension and things like that. The haltech had more analog inputs for that but not sure if it's enough in the long run. I think with CANbus there are a lot of modules that one can add but I'm not up to speed on that stuff at all. What are your thoughts on this? There was a cool semi DIY data acquisition setup that was crowd funded that had 3 axis accelerometer and a gyroscope built in. You seen that? Again I wasn't sure I wanted to make a project out of getting that stuff working but it is half the fun :).

    Thanks again for sharing!

    cheers
     
  20. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 14, 2011
    8,629
    SoCal LA/OC/New Mexico
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    Tim Dee
    I hate you guys

    Next car is going to be a salvage title pre 95 so I can cut the poo out of it
     
  21. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    I am working on sourcing all new connector plugs. On the connectors that have pigtails already, I will likely convert to DTM or weather pack connectors, but I am thinking that I like the Deutsch (DTM) connectors better. I should be able to source most of the other connectors pretty easily. I already have new coil and injector connectors.

    So to answer your question regarding the dash, it is supposed to communicate over the CAN Bus without significant drama. Although previously it was an RS-232 implementation for the Racepak data acquisition system. Whether that is the reality, is another question entirely, I should know in the next week or two when I get the IQ3s from Racepak (they will be delivering it hopefully on the 5th of December) to my house. Racepak is about a 20 minute drive from my house and one of their support people offered to drop it off on his way home. I decided on the IQ3s because of features, form factor, local service, and finally the price.

    I have not considered the non-engine management data acquisition aspects. Although, those options are tempting, I don't want to project to spiral out of control with mission creep. Once the motor is running, and the car is drivable, there is no doubt that I will start increasing the scope of the project to include other CAN bus data acquisition.

    Regarding the inputs and outputs, MS3-Pro has plenty, especially when you consider the CAN bus can really augment it significantly. My EGT and WBO2 data is all CANbus, so that's 10 inputs saved right there. As you know, I am planning to run a waste spark set up, so that means only 4 ignition outputs, and full sequential injection which will require 8 injector outputs.

    Inputs on the MS3-Pro include (1) shielded crank input, (1) shielded camshaft input, (8) analog inputs (5 are dedicated to IAT,CLT,TPS,O2, and 0-5v MAP), (2) digital inputs, (2) knock inputs, and (5) general purpose/frequency inputs.

    On the output side MS3-Pro has (10) dedicated injector outputs, (8) dedicated logic level outputs, (3) 5 Amp general purpose outputs, (3) 3 Amp high frequency outputs, (1) fuel pump relay output, (1) tach output and (1) stepper output.

    And on top of all that you have the CAN bus (IQ3s/EGT/WBO2) and RS-232 (Shadow Dash). It's pretty crazy how many inputs and outputs the MS3-Pro has, especially considering the price point.
     
  22. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    Knowing what I know now, I almost wish I had gone that route. Thankfully, the car isn't registered in CA, otherwise I would have to figure out some other stuff that would make this whole process a whole bunch more challenging.

    Although, part of me thinks it would be fun to see if you could successfully hide a turbo system from the smog inspectors (envision cutting the factory muffler in half to hide a pair of turbochargers and running the factory ECU in parallel (feeding it data from the megasquirt to keep it happy).
     
  23. bbpathfinder

    bbpathfinder Karting

    Mar 29, 2011
    80
    Scottsdale AZ
    Sounds like something VW would do...
     
  24. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 14, 2011
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    Tim Dee

    OBD emulation has come a long long way recently
    Even OBD11 can be set to play nice with smogs computers while running a stand alone ecu
    As long as the emission level is good, have a nice day. Of coarse the newer the car the more ECU info hurdles will need to by addressed, ecu number, make model info with any other handshakes the newer cars have.
    Our mutly 355's are no issue at all :)
     
  25. Jacob Potts

    Jacob Potts Formula Junior

    Dec 11, 2008
    352
    Pueblo, CO
    Full Name:
    Jacob Potts
    It is now December 2016. How is the progress of this project going? :)
     

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