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Twin Turbo TR feedback

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by johnbob, Dec 14, 2003.

  1. johnbob

    johnbob Karting

    Nov 8, 2003
    124
    Oklahoma
    I have for a long time now been considering an engine performance upgrade for my 86 TR. I have recently been considering more seriously moving forward with one of three options; Norwood stage one twin turbo 450 rear wheel hp set up ($28K), 100 hp NO2 set up ($7.5K), swap engine with an engine from a 512 TR ($18K).
    Prices are based on recent inquiries with available sources, the NO2 set-up is very stealth as I have seen pics of this set-up and there is no hint of the installation until you depress the pedal.
    Norwood claims that stage one performance creates a whole new personality for this car and that reliability is still very good. Also claims that 900 HP is very obtainable with the TR but that reliability is iffy and based on driving habits at that level. Can not imagine 900 HP in a TR! I have talked to 512 owners and they say that the 512 is a beast, have not driven one but have considered swapping, I have located a 512 motor with low mileage and understand that this should be a bolt-in swap.
    Feedback with personnal experience is appreciated.
    Thanks
    John
     
  2. henryk

    henryk Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2003
    479
    Door County, WI
    Your best option would be just to sell your car, and buy a 512 TR. To upgrade the 86 TR makes no sense, to me. There is a reason why the 512 TR has a single complete frame, as opposed to the "other" TRs, with a separate engine subframe.

    Just my thoughts.
     
  3. johnbob

    johnbob Karting

    Nov 8, 2003
    124
    Oklahoma
    Thanks for your reply, and your feedback. I agree that the 512 is an altogether improved vehicle however, I should have clarified as selling the TR is not an option, as my wife has a serious sentimental attachment to the TR ( I must admit, I share this attachment) and selling is not an option. Upgrading is the agreed path forward.
     
  4. 348 Turbo

    348 Turbo Formula 3

    Jul 17, 2002
    1,837
    I'd think hard about what you want to do with the car. If you want to make it FAST, Norwood's has done many TR upgrades. They can make it as fast as you'd like. I believe James could make it easily crush a 512 TR (at least in power). The 512 TR did also offer some other options for overall increases in performance, (braking, handling, etc.) I love the 512TR, and it IS a beast, but James could make your 86 TR easily "Tunable". If we're going to talk about raw POWER, Norwoods turbos are incredable. Once again, Norwood's has done many of these cars. You could back it off, (and increase reliability), or have him tune it to 900HP and go out racing superbikes! If you want him to tune it superfast,(ie. intercooled, MoTeC), be ready for a BIG bill. I love my 348 Norwood Twin Turbo.
    Best of luck. Keep us posted.
     
  5. henryk

    henryk Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2003
    479
    Door County, WI
    I can appreciate your attachment to the car.

    While researching ways to increase power in my 88 TR, I came to one conclusion: Regardless of which way is chosen, there was one constant; and that being.......having to upgrade the FI system from CIS to that of a programmable PI system. Since my attachment is not as great as yours........I decided to leave things alone, and possibly look for a 512 TR.

    You may find that the extra power is sufficient, with just the upgrade FI system. And since it would programmable, it can be easily re-adjusted if turbos are added later.

    Upgrading the FI system would basically make this a 512 TR motor. The cost would have to be compared to buying a 512 TR motor. However, I don't think that the stock 512 TR FI system is "easily" programmable. You may still end up needing a new system, if turbos are added.
     
  6. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

    Nov 1, 2003
    34,891
    Victory Circle
    Full Name:
    HUBBSTER
    Since selling the TR is not an option I would suggest looking for a 512M engine, might as well upgrade to the top of the line while you ar at it. Make sure you see how easy the swap is because the 512TR/M engine has to mount differently from the TR engine. If that gets too crazy go for the twin turbos & keep the boost level reasonable. Make SURE you get the transmission upgraded or its going to go bye bye.
    As for the rest of the car, to stiffen the body you could have Norwood add a roll bar & some rear strut braces so it will approximate the 512TR chassis & upgrade the brakes too. Good luck
     
  7. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

    Oct 30, 2002
    3,299
    Alabama (was Mich.)
    Full Name:
    Jeff
    Johnbob: I too have been considering performance upgrades to my TR, choices sure are limited. I am more than happy with the power during normal driving, the only place I would like more is at wide open throttle. Can you elaborate more on the nitrous set up you've seen? The price of $7.5k seems a bit high unless some pretty fancy work was done. Where was the nitrous added into the intake system? To me it seems that two small plates could be located just below each intake plenum and the extra fuel needed taken from the fuel return lines. And adding only 100 horsepower with nitrous is pretty safe for the motor too - I like that idea. The only drawback is that you must keep filling up the bottle. On a good note...if you do ever sell the car you can easily go back to stock configuration. Turbos and even a 512TR motor are kinda "permament" modifications. For the 512TR motor would any electronics have to be changed? If not then it's just a simple motor swap. Bottom line for me is, what is the biggest bang for your hard earned dollars, and nitrous is the winner here. One other thing, if your making more power a good upgrade is to use a 512TR transmission, so that kinda offsets the engine swap idea a bit. Let's keep this thread going as I am very interested in hearing what other's thing about this.
     
  8. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
    2,722
    Little Rock
    Full Name:
    David Jones
    So you want to keep the TR, but want wicked fast performance?
    If it were me I would keep the TR stock,
    and take that $28k that you were thinking of dumping into it
    and buy a used race car.
    That way you have the performance you are looking for,
    and still have the sentimental ole TR.
     
  9. allanlambo

    allanlambo F1 Rookie

    Jun 9, 2002
    4,363
    Maui
    Full Name:
    Allan
    7.5K for a 100 shot? LOL!
     
  10. Eilig

    Eilig Formula 3

    Aug 31, 2001
    2,174
    Full Name:
    Cavallo
    There's a good article on Norwood's various performance options for the TR in the newest issue of Forza Magazine -- check it out.
     
  11. johnbob

    johnbob Karting

    Nov 8, 2003
    124
    Oklahoma
     
  12. johnbob

    johnbob Karting

    Nov 8, 2003
    124
    Oklahoma
    Been discussing with James and he says that as long as you don't "hammer" the car that the driveline will hold up well with the 450-500 HP boost levels. Beyond that driveline problems are inevitable. James also stated that the car gets a whole new personality with the same drivability as before the upgrade. Leaning toward the TT option at this point.
     
  13. EspritSE

    EspritSE Formula Junior

    Dec 1, 2003
    509
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Craig
    7.5k for the nitrous? I hope the decimal point is in the wrong spot.

    And how big are these brakes you are installing?

    Craig
     
  14. G-force

    G-force F1 Rookie

    Aug 4, 2002
    3,053
    so california
    Full Name:
    wayne skiles
    With NOS you definitely want MSD RPM window switches. On my viper
    I used 3000 rpm on..5800 rpm OFF. this way if you hit an rpm
    rev limiter (which the viper had) you won't be frying your motor
    with nitrous (or if you over rev i.e. miss a shift. Cheap idiot proof insurance.
     
  15. allanlambo

    allanlambo F1 Rookie

    Jun 9, 2002
    4,363
    Maui
    Full Name:
    Allan
    Anything Norwood touches, id run from. Every car he has ever built, that i have seen, is a turd.
     
  16. TURBOQV

    TURBOQV Formula Junior

    Mar 6, 2003
    838
    NV and Socal

    James Patterson just finished my turbo 308 earlier this year.

    I cannot say enough good things about him and his workmanship.

    your car with the NORWOOD TT setup will destroy any other stock Ferrari.

    the 512 TR is an awesome car but will not come close to a NORWOOD setup. Do not plan on recouping a large percentage of your investment.
    I would not hesitate having NORWOOD do it. I just spent 21k on my 308 and will have it till the day I die!!

    you might consider updating the suspension and brakes if u do it!

    Good LUck

    Paul
     
  17. 348 Turbo

    348 Turbo Formula 3

    Jul 17, 2002
    1,837
    "Anything Norwood touches, id run from. Every car he has ever built, that i have seen, is a turd."
    Not to start a flame war, but..................
    Perhaps that's because you've only seen them from behind, and can't touch them?
     
  18. TURBOQV

    TURBOQV Formula Junior

    Mar 6, 2003
    838
    NV and Socal

    WELL SAID

    ENOUGH SAID
     
  19. allanlambo

    allanlambo F1 Rookie

    Jun 9, 2002
    4,363
    Maui
    Full Name:
    Allan

    LOL! Judging by his performance figures, i will destroy everyone of his creations, including his supposed 1000hp TR, and his TTF50. I'll give your 348 a running start and ill start in 3rd gear.
     
  20. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,337
    "I have for a long time now been considering an engine performance upgrade for my 86 TR"

    Are you within 3 seconds of the lap record at your favorite road racing track with your current TR?
     
  21. karmavore

    karmavore Formula 3

    Dec 29, 2002
    1,641
    Maryland
    Full Name:
    Luke Colorado

    I love you Allan. If your hot wife doesn't work out... :)

    Luke.
     
  22. allanlambo

    allanlambo F1 Rookie

    Jun 9, 2002
    4,363
    Maui
    Full Name:
    Allan
    We're going on 6 years now, and couldnt be happier!
     
  23. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
    12,887
    Cumming, Georgia
    Full Name:
    Franklin E. Parker
    I too have heard bad things about cars modified by Norwoods from several Ferrari technicians in the Atlanta area both at the dealer and independant .
     
  24. Bad Chariot

    Bad Chariot Karting

    Dec 6, 2003
    239
    Reading, MA
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Just curious...what would the performance gains of adding the turbo to the TR? 0-60, 1/4 mile etc..What is the stock HP rating of a 86 TR? I would think 450 RWHP would be insane on a TR.

    Mike
     
  25. 348 Turbo

    348 Turbo Formula 3

    Jul 17, 2002
    1,837
    Well, OK then, if you can get the lambo started, we're on!
     

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