Uh oh! Clutch pedal sticky?!? | FerrariChat

Uh oh! Clutch pedal sticky?!?

Discussion in '360/430' started by KILOCHARLIE, Jul 28, 2014.

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  1. KILOCHARLIE

    KILOCHARLIE Formula Junior

    Oct 14, 2012
    321
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    KC
    #1 KILOCHARLIE, Jul 28, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2014
    Been out all day in my modena through quite a bit of stop/start traffic and parking etc. On two occasions when parking late this afternoon my clutch pedal felt very different for a few seconds. The pedal felt sticky, i.e when I lifted my foot off it it seemed slow to return to its normal position.

    Clutch was changed by previous owner 16k miles ago and I've always treated my clutch well. Heel to toeing as much as possible, treating her easy and haven't had any slipping or the like. I do drive my car quite a lot in traffic tho.

    Have checked the clutch fluid which is in the middle of the min and max levels as it always has been. Looked slightly darker than when it was checked last on my last service only 1000 miles ago. Then the mechanic said my clutch's biting point seemed quite low but other ferrari owners who have driven my car says it felt fine. The mechanic said my clutch might be on its way out but after I told him it was changed 15k ago he checked with his manager who said it might just be air in the system. He checked the fluid visually and said it looked pretty fresh and had seen much much worse so said not to worry about it.

    Since I've got home I've done a bit of generic research on it and these possible causes came up. Any idea if the 360 is more prone to one or the other?....
    Broken or stretched clutch cable - The cable needs the right amount of tension to push and pull effectively.
    Leaky or defective slave and/or master clutch cylinders - Leaks keep the cylinders from building the necessary amount of pressure.
    Air in the hydraulic line - Air affects the hydraulics by taking up space the fluid needs to build pressure.
    Misadjusted linkage - When your foot hits the pedal, the linkage transmits the wrong amount of force.
    Mismatched clutch components - Not all aftermarket parts work with your clutch.


    Any idea which one this may be? Am I safe to drive the car to see if it reoccurs or could I do serious damage without getting it checked out? I

    Thanks for any help.
     
  2. Mozella

    Mozella Formula Junior

    Mar 24, 2013
    905
    Piemonte, Italia
    You need a new mechanic. If this "service" involved more than filling the tank with fuel, he has let you down. If a clutch defect is noticed or mentioned during a "service" and they told you "it might just be air in the system" but they didn't bleed the clutch and then they sent you on your way saying "not to worry about it", you've been screwed unless they also said "Don't worry about the bill".

    To do this job, you grab a rag and a wrench (plus a clear plastic tube and empty beer can if you're flushing the system), lean over the engine compartment, ask your helper to depress the clutch, loosen the bleeder to let the air escape, and repeat as necessary much like bleeding the brakes. You may prefer a suction or pressure bleeder, but in any case the job is quick and simple. Describing the procedure takes almost as long as doing it.

    If you keep at it for a few additional cycles, you've flushed and replaced the clutch hydraulic fluid, something which you should do every year or two. Looking at the fluid and saying "it's not too ugly" is something you do when you BUY a car, not when you service it.

    To answer your question, my 360 developed intermittent, odd clutch pedal feel not long after I purchased it. My symptoms were a little different from yours though. When parking with the clutch depressed and only partially released and then depressed again or held to the floor for an extended period of time, the clutch pressure would bleed off and the clutch would start biting even with the pedal depressed. I also had a slow pedal return once in a while. The clutch master cylinder was bypassing. I replaced the master cylinder (also known as the "clutch pump")and flushed and bled the system for around 100 Euros and a few hours time. Now it's fine.

    Your slave cylinder might also be bad, but that end is a LOT harder to replace.

    First look at the clutch bleed block, that little metal unit about the size of a pack of cigarettes bolted to the side of the transmission. If the bleeder screw is over tightened, these blocks crack and leak. Leaking fluid should be obvious. Replace it with a better Hill Engineering unit if necessary. If it's dry, then I'd flush and bleed the clutch next. In fact, I'd do that no matter what.

    Then I would check the pedal adjustment. The procedure and specifications are in the digital workshop manual. It's' pretty easy, but if you're a fat guy like me, working upside down with your head under the steering column while trying to operate two wrenches with one hand, this procedure might make you talk dirty for a few minutes.

    If that doesn't fix it, I'd at least test the master cylinder to see if it bleeds off after being depressed for a minute or so (with the engine running). If the clutch bites with the pedal fully depressed, change the master cylinder because it's easy and you can do it yourself. If that doesn't work, it's time for most owners to find a good mechanic because you need to separate the transmission from the engine to get to the slave cylinder. Hill makes a replacement part. If you're good you can DIY this job, but most owners will hire professional help.

    By the way, if your mechanic says your clutch cable is bad, ask him if he knows the difference between a 360 Modena and a Porsche 911.
    If he says, Duh.............................................. .............................................................................................................................. I think so, but I'm not sure." then move on.
     
  3. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

    Jun 14, 2009
    3,454
    Dublin, Ireland
    Full Name:
    Greg
    As above.

    I've had those symptoms on and off over time. Give it a bleed (careful with the torque you apply to the nipple as it's easy to crack the block) and you'll probably be fine.

    Flush entire system if the fluid is old.
     
  4. KILOCHARLIE

    KILOCHARLIE Formula Junior

    Oct 14, 2012
    321
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    KC
    Thanks guys, really appreciate the comprehensive replies. On more thought the manager at the service centre (well respected ferrari specialist) actually said there might have been water rather than air in the system which apparently occurs if the fluid isn't changed regularly. The visual inspection was just his way of checking if it was recent fluid and he also offered to do some tests on the fluid itself for me which I declined as to me the clutch felt fine and it was only in for an annual. I've just checked my service history and the brake fluid was changed just before I bought the car 2 years ago, which from memory is the same as clutch fluid.

    Will try and bleed any air that may be in the system out today anyway just in case. If not I wouldn't be surprised if it was the cable. Took her for a drive yesterday and she seemed fine. Would I be right in saying if the master cylinder was bad I would be losing fluid due to it leaking?

    Thanks again for the info though as it really helps for info like this rather than the one liners "yeah take it to a dealer" type of replies that people like posting.
     
  5. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

    Jun 14, 2009
    3,454
    Dublin, Ireland
    Full Name:
    Greg
    Fluid should be fine for two years of normal use (provided it was done right two years ago) but due a change now realistically.

    There is no cable to stretch or break. It's a hydraulic system from head to toe.

    The master cylinder can go bad in a couple of ways. It could allow fluid to leak past it's seals internally so there would be no leak but poor operation. It could allow fluid to leak past it's seals externally in which case there would be a leak (and a loss of reservoir level).

    The same is true at the other end of the system - the slave cylinder (clutch release mechanism) can fail in either of those two ways.

    As recommended by Mozella, you can check for the internal leak by pressing and holding the clutch down while enaged in gear. If, after a minute or two, the clutch starts to drag and the car wants to creep then you likely have an internal leak past a seal but it could be at either end.

    Personally, I suspect you will find an improvement by simply bleeding the clutch circuit several strokes of the pedal.

    If that works I'd recommend you schedule a full fluid flush in the short to mid term in order to keep everything tip-top. No point in doing it now as you may yet have to break open the system to replace parts and there's not a lot of point in losing brand new fluid in the process (price depending on quality of fluid of course).

    Best of luck and don't over torque the clutch bleed nipple.
     
  6. Dubya

    Dubya Karting

    Jun 30, 2013
    114
    Sydney, Australia
    I had exactly the same problem. Check my previous posts...

    Started by bleeding the system...it didn't fix the problem....

    Then we replaced the clutch master cylinder.....didn't fix it.... The weird thing is that we couldn't find any obvious fluid escape...

    The problem go so bad, that we decided to open up the thrust bearing... Yup, the incorrect thrust bearing seals were installed once-upon-a-time, and thus weren't doing their job.
    We replaced them and all was good.....until the thrust bearing seized... It appears that the excess fluid had stripped the grease out of the thrust bearing, and it only took 50km to seize....

    So, we split the clutch open again and replaced the thrust bearing.

    All works perfectly now.....and it was great fun being involved with pulling it apart and pitting it back together again...
     

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