Some discussion on this on other threads and I said I'd post my last major/cambelt service costs for those interested. Instead of hijacking other threads I thought I'd start a new one. Lets start with published fixed price service costs. Note we pay 20% tax on all quoted prices. - The Ferrari Centre - Cambelt & major is £1400 ($1800), with additional work at £85per hour ($110). - Migliore - cambelt & major £1500 ($1944); Note sure on additional work/hourly rate, but from memory its £80/hr ($103); - Keys motorsport - cambelt and major £1495 ($1944). - Main dealers. They don't advertise fixed maintenance prices for cars of this age, only going back to 360s. But I do know for older cars they will charge between £80-£100/hr ish ($103 - 130) for service depending on dealer and your relationship with them. I don't have a scanner at the moment, so the following is the itemised prices from the last major/belts on my car. Note this wasn't in my ownership: -Labour: - cambelt £787.50 (15 hrs); - annual service £420.00 (8 hours);- parts: - Cambelt £27.23 - tensioner kit £135.00 - alternator bearing £23.38 - oil filter £25.12 - Engine oil £47.05 - sump washer £1.33Total = £1759.93 ($2,281.18) Includes tax The eagle eyed of you will note that some "stuff" wasn't done. To my mind this is a typical major/cambelt service to support the sale of a car. When I got the car I had an annual "plus" service done with the following extra items done: - supply and fit spark plugs £112.50 - supply and fit fuel filters £62.50 - replace gearbox oil £75.00 Total = £300.00 ($388) includes tax (Air filter and other belts were all inspected and didn't need replacing.) A major with cambelt and tensioners (excluding tappets, air filter, a/c belt and alternator belt) £2059.93 ($2,669.18) Even if you added in tappets, air filter, etc. a good major with belts should be no more than circa $3k. Where people are quoting $10-15k I have no idea. Either they are a) being royally ripped off or b) the bill includes way more than just a standard major and belts and all the "whilst your there" items that can come up / get suggested plus some other stuff as well. I'm sure I've missed some items that should be in a major/cambelt, but I think we have enough to compare; completely academic but still interesting....maybe!!!!
I agree with you. I’m not sure why service costs (for all vehicles, not just Ferraris) are so high in the US compared with the UK. Everyone trying to pay off their Snap-On toolbox bill or something? haha. My last cambelt change was done by Ferrari Centre just before it was put on the boat to Seattle, and it was basically the same as you described.
Here’s what I had from my last bill- it appears the US definition of “major” is different from the UK one. F355 major service - $5,500 1 x RIGHT VALVE COVER GASKET 1 x LEFT VALVE COVER GASKET 4 x CAM SEAL 4 x O-RING 2 x CAM O-RING 8 x SPARK PLUG O-RING 2 x END PLATE GASKET 1 x LEFT PLUG GASKET 1 x RIGHT PLUG GASKET 2 x FUEL BLOCK O-RING 2 x TIMING BELT 2 x TENSIONER BEARINGS (HILL ENGINEERING) 4 x CAM BOLT O-RING 1 x FUEL FILTER ** SEE OPTIONS BELOW ** 1 x OIL FILTER 2 x AIR FILTER 8 x NGK PLATINUM SPARK PLUGS 1 x PS BELT 1 x ALT BELT 1 x AC BELT 2 x WATER HOSE 1 x S-WATER HOSE Motul 5 40 engine oil Redline 75 90 NS gearbox oil Motul 600 brake fluid BMW coolant Repaint valve covers Mechanical timing Balance throttles
For starters, there are a few different items and quantities regarding the 348 and F355. Plus one list shows "kits" and another is itemized.
For "service", not necessarily parts, can we really compare the hourly rates? I mean there are so many variables that I doubt an apples to apples comparison will work.
Certainly hourly rates change by country and by shop. In the US I have seen them range for $95 (Indy) to $175 (Ferrari dealer). But from everything that has been discussed here and in the other thread the bottom line is what you get for what you paid are very different. This is why I dislike the term "Major service". It is non descriptive. If a friend calls you as says, "I have to have major surgery." What's the next question you ask? "For what." Major service is a generic term that at best means only one thing. It's more than a oil change.
I agree. But I was suggesting economics overall, or maybe differences in each countries' economies. Literally converting the British Pound to the dollar and then calling up the hourly rates just doesn't seem to be an effective method for comparison. An example, the cambelt & major was £1400 ($1800) recently, but back in 2006/7 it might have been $2800. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Why not? What a mechanic can do in an hour is about the same in either country. Obviously looking at the grander economics of ownership, there are major differences. In the US the acquisition price is lower, gas (or petrol) prices are lower, annual taxes and fees tend to be lower. Perhaps in Europe doing a 'light' major (minor major?) is more common to help offset some of those other costs.
Yes, they do it with the engine in. The list of parts does not include coolant, brake fluid which would be required if the engine was removed. Besides, there is no tech I know that can remove the engine, swap timing belt and tensioner, and put the engine back in 15 hours. On the topic of UK vs US service costs, one of the biggest differences is the cost of labor. Ferrari of Silicon Valley charges $240 per hour for labor. Lexus and Porsche charge about the same. The other difference is the service mentioned here is really not a major service, but a simple engine in belt swap. You get what you pay for. If costs are concerning to you, do your own work and you can save a bunch.
Its engine out. Invoice explicitly states "To remove the engine and gearbox assembly from the car...". I know the guy that runs the shop and they do it properly. I'm not a trained mechanic but do some of my own work...why would it take more than a day to drop the engine? If you had done it a few times and had the right tools/lifts etc. that's a good mornings work isn't it? As to hourly rates; main dealer normal rate is circa £140 hour plus VAT so £168 ($218). but they know people with cars of our vintage wont pay that and if they want the work they have to be reasonably competitive with the indies...all about volume of work and getting clients wound in!
With the exception of the fluids and miscellaneous services listed at the bottom of the list, that looks like the $1600 30k major service parts kit from Ricambi.
I'd say there were a few "whilst you are there items in that" e.g. repaint valve covers, coolant hoses. That said, the above is broadly what I'm having done at my next service on my 348 and the garage has said that will be about £2,500. ($3,250). Difference is easily written off in variations in labour rates/exchange rates! Still doesn't explain where some guys are quoting $10k plus services...must be some fing awesome coffee and receptionists!!!!
So you’re saying 15 hours total to remove the engine, do all the work, then reassemble the engine? No chance. I don’t care who is doing the work or what his experience is. It takes a pro about 6 hours one way (and I believe that’s being a tad on the fast side) just to get the engine out - and assuming the same time to go back there’s 12 hours right there. What about the work in between, the purpose you removed the engine to begin with? I’ve been quoted 40 hours by the pros, so do it in 1/3 of that time frame seems more than a reach
Agree 100% Also I have seen dealer rates considerably higher. Our costs of doing business are higher in a great many ways, dealer and independent alike.
It can be done in 15 hours, believe me but American Ferrari owners want no part of that quality of repair. It is tolerated, even expected in Europe and GB. When we were at school at the factory you would be very shocked by what we heard and saw from Ferrari service reps from some of those countries.
There is a sweeping statement if I have ever heard one. So UK and European cars are poorly serviced then? Interesting statement. That's like saying all mechanics in the US are good and no mechanic in the US has ever ripped off a client! Each to his own view.
Ferrari Centre removes the engine, they absolutely do not do it engine in. Not sure why you’d even type that. I have two of my Ferrari Centre invoices that shows 16 hours for cambelt change, and one that shows 20 hours. All show line items for coolant and oil. One of them included Hill tensioners. I do think one of the biggest items is in fact the labor rate. That and I would be willing to bet that “book hours” are a bit inflated in general and everyone goes by the hours in the book. Not sure how the UK does it typically, but I am always amazed the good deals with servicing and fabrication people get in the UK vs what’s charged for the same in the US—not just Ferraris. I find this on any Alfa, Fiat forums or even TV shows. And here is a pic I’ve posted before of my car at Ferrari Centre. Image Unavailable, Please Login
And there is a fine example of a shop that would not be touching my car. Cannot even be bothered with a proper engine cart to correctly remove and relocate the drive unit. Why not just do it outside in the dirt parking lot?
Not sure I get what the issue is? Are the tyres and suspension not suitable for supporting the engine/gearbox assembly? If you could elaborate and show pics of what US service centres do that would be appreciated and help identify your concerns with the above.
Here is a great example, not to pick on you but you have no understanding of doing it the correct way yet defend incorrect procedures and under equipped service facilities most probably employing people of similar shortcomings. I am sure someone here will post a picture. I am done with lunch and need to go apply some proper repair procedures to a clients Ferrari.
Here is the engine stand I designed and built. The drawings are free for all on our website. Caster plates too so the car can be taken off the lift and moved around. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
And that is a (copy of) piece of Ferrari repair equipment, not a US method, a proper as designed method. One of the reasons we charge more is so we can use proper tools and equipment to fix the cars properly and without unseen damage. But if it works for you, go ahead and have it done out in the parking lot.
