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Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Ed Niles, Mar 20, 2019.

  1. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
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    It might be interesting to think about cars that have been stolen or otherwise secreted. Here are some that I have touched:
    1. 4619, a 330 LMB. I acted as escrow holder as this car went to Don Fong. Most of us know who has the car, but where is it? One of the sweetest drivers ever.
    2. 8743GT, a 275GTB 6/C. I sold this car to my friend John Andrews, in primer. Years later, the carb set-up was stolen from the car while in a shed on John's property. After more years passed, the remainder was stolen. I know it went to the bay area, and then I heard it went Europe. The laws differ regarding passing title to a stolen car, and John seems to be a bit laid back about recovering it. Part of the problem is that all his titles were stolen years ago. Another great driver.
    3. B0214,an Iso Grifo. Made up from 2 cars wrecked at Sebring, B0210 and B0214. The last known sighting was a used car lot in Hollywood.
    Your comments on the above, or any other stories , welcomed.
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  2. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Very interesting thread, Ed. Thanks.

    Not to venture too far off topic, but I'd value your opinion....

    I never quite understood how a 250GTO is so much more valued than a 330LMB. Sure, the GTO has a more impressive competition record, but the LMB is much rarer, the LMB outperforms the GTO and is a more handsome, if also a bit less dramatic, design (yes, I know, purely subjective).
     
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  3. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    This will be interesting to follow.
     
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  4. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
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    Jack, I don't have an answer, other than the GTO's comp history.
     
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  5. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
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    Well, I guess only one or two of us find this topic of interest. I thought at least someone might chime in about the Andrews 275 GTB.
     
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  6. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
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    Ed why don't you chime in and tell the story? Thanks.
     
  7. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    It's been told here before-- there was an extensive thread on it many years ago, and I think Ed was a big part of that. However, I'm always up for anything you want to share, Ed! Your contributions here are much appreciated.
     
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  8. yellowtr

    yellowtr Formula Junior

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    I am always fascinated by stories of missing cars, please do share.

    How many rarities are missing?
     
  9. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
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    Yes, its been told, but briefly, I bought 7843 as it sat in Hollywood Sport Cars with rear damage. I had it repaired, and as it was in primer John A. showed up at my door for a visit. I put a spare tire in for him to sit on, and gave him a fast ride around Lake Hollywood, my favorite "sale by terror" spot. Fast car. Deal. John installed it in a shed on his property, where it rested for years. His property was open to two streets, and covered with stuff. Along the way, someone swiped the 6-carb set, and at some time someone got in his safe and took all his car titles. Then someone took all the remaining cars. Thank heaven he had already sold his SWB and his old Touring berlinetta. 8743 went to the bay area, and then I heard Europe. And now?
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  10. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Rookie

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    did the repair consist of grafting on a new rear clip?
     
  11. Birel

    Birel Formula 3
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    #8743 was last seen 2013 in London, at the premises of Ferrari authorised service agent Joe Macari.
     
  12. abilliet

    abilliet Formula Junior
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    Is it true that cars were sometimes repaired at marenello and to save tax were often restamped with a new chassis number ? ( I thought I read this somewhere on f chat several years ago
     
  13. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Certain people, notably in France, Germany and some South American countries, tried to avoid paying taxes (for their second car) and therefore had (their second) car restamped so that they were able to use the first set of documens (for their second car). This was in the 1950s.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  14. abilliet

    abilliet Formula Junior
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    I know of several lhd c/4 with same chassis numbers possibly bought new in Italy. At what stage would tax be paid on new cars in the early 70 ‘s. When you bought the car from the dealer ? Or when the car was registered for the first time. ?


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  15. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
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    what kind of tax?
    sales tax is payed to the dealer
    "registration or driving tax" - so this what you pay yearly in germany - don´t know in other countries - is payed yearly after registration. but you can cancel the registration and get tax back.
     
  16. abilliet

    abilliet Formula Junior
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    Sales tax in Italy in the early 70s. For instance in Australia most of the tax is paid by you when you register the car. ( you can buy an unregistered car from a dealer - and pay no tax until you decide to register the car )


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  17. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

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    I think a certain king even did it in either Belgium or Netherlands. Equally interesting is that the company ie Ferrari accepted to do that, as they were also re stamping race cars from time to time to replace cars destroyed after having entered a competition..
     
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  18. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
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    I could be mistaken by generalizing, but in some countries, at least in Europe and long before official formation of E.U., importing high value luxury goods (a Ferrari?) from abroad were often subjected to very high import duties and taxes, some even as high as 100+% of its original factory invoice price, so it would, sort of, make sense for some individuals attempting to avoid paying them, regardless of how wealthy they may be.

    Easy, just ask (& perhaps pay a little ?) for someone with access to (factory) tooling to stamp the new car with same VIN as the one they purchased a year or two earlier and show existing registration papers when bringing the car home across the border.

    Wouldn't be hard to imagine individuals with less than steady ethics/moral compass engaging in something like this, especially if they bought, imported and paid all the duties & (high) taxes on one already in, lets say 195?, but a year or two later decided to buy another, newer model of same brand car.

    And I'd imagine some manufacturers also having more accommodating compass bearings than others. :rolleyes:
     
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  19. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    Many Latin American countries have (or had?) very high import duties on cars-- sometimes well over 100%. Avoiding that would be a big deal.
     
  20. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
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    in germany there have none of those "luxurious taxes for cars". but I don´t know how it was before 1960
     
  21. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Think about chassis 0146 E and 0346 M of Kurt Zeller, owner of the Eisenhuettenwerke (Metal Works) in Hammerau (German special zone license plates after the war).

    Marcel Massini
     
  22. JCR

    JCR F1 Veteran
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    A president of Mexico sent his crashed Maserati 5000GT back for a rebody rather than purchase another due to the high import duties.
     
  23. turbo-joe

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    this has been before 1960
     
  24. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
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    For some reason, the 375MM spiders were (I think) the most popular model for swapping nos. The S/N chasers here will know more. That model was being raced around the world, and many owners were interested in saving on import duties. The factory was complicit in some cases, for favored customers.
     
  25. Struppi

    Struppi Rookie

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    In theory numerous reasons to „rearrange“ identities could be thought of.
    Customs: The system was logically much less sophisticated in the 1950s and 60s.
    Chassis numbers were noted as they crossed borders. That required for a deposit for the customs. Once you sorted out the proper customs, your deposit could be refunded. Or you could take another car to the border and transfer the deposit to another chassisnumber. That was common for racecars which frequently crossed the various borders in Europe.
    To make the paperwork „less complicated“ the chassis numbers could theoretically be „adjusted“ to the existing deposits and ongoing customs processing. :)
    Or:
    The easiest way hypothetically was to send your registered and customs-declared car to the factories in their countries of origin and to get them updated there. If the identity remained the same no new customs or taxes were necessary. Would be like sending a 430 back to Italy and in return get a F8 with same chassis no. In theory, not that this ever happened.
    Or:
    You -as a factory- have a demonstrator. That is registered, taxes paid. A customer buys a new car, you „fresh up“ your demonstrator with a new identity, sell it as new and get to keep the original identity for a second demonstrator or something alike.
    (God forbid, this definitely never happened)
    Or:
    You have to build 25 cars for FIA homologation. Unfortunately, at the time you only have 15 cars finished. You could theoretically restamp the existing cars and present them repeatedly to the FIA. (And we all know, this never happened :) )
    Or:
    Customer has set his mind on a specific car, let’s say a Le Mans winner. Unfortunately by the time you have already crashed, sold that specific car or most of its components. Well, theoretically you could take a similar car and re-unite it with the identity and history accordingly. (What naturally never ever happend - ever)!

    Ironymode off:
    50 years ago the markets were much more isolated. There was no internet and hardly any customs agent could identify any exotic sports car. Racecars were crashed and switched and exchanged. Everybody wanted to avoid taxes, customs, transportation costs. It was tempting to do just that, and it was easy as nobody had the „big picture“ and knew in all detail what went on.
    I bet that in 10-15 years we will find out how today’s formula 1 teams „manage“ the limited number of components. Surely nobody figured out a way to use 7 mgu-ks with only 5 different identities
    :)
     

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