Union 76 100 Octane Gas

Discussion in '360/430' started by sparetireless, Jun 2, 2013.

  1. ATTENTION: http/https Bug Fix! Most of us have been experiencing problems staying logged in as we navigate the site. That is simply the result of links varying between http and https, which each require different logons. To resolve we are going to force https starting sometime Wednesday. However, you may have problems accessing FerrariChat until after you log out, clear cookies/browser cache, and log back on. Keep in mind my email is admin@ferrarichat.com if you do have access problems after Wednesday. Thanks!
  1. sparetireless

    sparetireless Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,229
    I put a 1/3 of a tank in with balance normal 91 Octane.

    Car seemed to run fine, but it ran fine before.

    Have you noticed if it helps at all? Is it noticeable if I put in a full tank of it.

    Its expensive, $10/Gallon.
     
  2. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    27,499
    Albuquerque, NM
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    If the Motronic system provides full spark advance when using 91 octane, which it does, higher octane gasoline gives no benefit. Higher octane fuel is less susceptible to preignition and detonation and that is really its only benefit. Unless your car is modified with higher compression pistons or the Motronic ECU has had its advance curve modified, the 100 octane fuel is just wasting money.
     
  3. Ingpr

    Ingpr F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 30, 2009
    2,566
    PR
    Full Name:
    David
    Told me about it!
    I only run 100oct and I fill the tank with $230.00
     
  4. Slow poke

    Slow poke Rookie

    Jan 25, 2011
    31
    Miami, FL
    Full Name:
    Mark
    I don't know why people think you need more octane if the factory ignition ECU map is set for 91-93 pump gas? From my racing experience with GM LS7 engines, higher octane fuel will slow ignition burn rate and result in less peak hp on a dyno if it does not detonate on 93 octane. 100 octane and above is only needed for higher cylinder pressures like for supercharging or turbocharging. An old racers trick is to buy Toluene at Ace or Home Depo for about $20 gallon and add 1 gal toluene to 5 gallons of 91 octane to produce ((1*114 + 5*91))/(1+5) = 94.8 octane which is more than enough octane for a factory ECU. Save some money and make your own. $230 for a tank of 100 unleaded is crazy!
     
  5. Jagbuff

    Jagbuff Formula 3

    Jan 13, 2004
    2,258
    Site of US F1 Race!
    Full Name:
    frenchie
    +1, higher octane has slower flame propagation so drop in HP makes sense.
     
  6. Evan.Fiorentino

    Evan.Fiorentino F1 Rookie

    Aug 23, 2005
    2,851
    South East Florida
    Full Name:
    Evan
    87 Octane is actually a more powerful and efficient burning gas, unfortunately that also means it detonates as soon as you start making some decent power! Be careful running anything over 93 for extended periods as it heats the catalytic convertor above its normal operating temp and could cause a cat failure.
     
  7. Tired of seeing this ad? Upgrade now
  8. Ingpr

    Ingpr F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 30, 2009
    2,566
    PR
    Full Name:
    David
    My car runs with a dyno custum EUC tune.
    I increase my heads flow by 11% intake and exhaust with a better intake system and free flow exhaust. It limits up to 9.2k rpm.
    I think you need a good race gas to get the best of all the upgrades, don't you?
     
  9. Trent

    Trent Formula 3

    Dec 10, 2003
    2,009
    Indialantic, FL
    Full Name:
    Trent
    +1... Higher than 93 octane is not helping you and could reduce maximum HP.

    +1; just wasting $

    +1; Higher octane gas is less energy dense.

    Only if your ECU tune sets your timing advance to take advantage of higher octane fuel, and then the gain is minimal from the fuel itself. This is assuming we are not talking about a top fuel dragster, or forced induction in general. In forced induction the general goal is higher boost, and the limitation "wall" is detonation. Thus higher octane reduces the chance of detonation and thus allows more boost, making more HP/TQ.
     
  10. Ingpr

    Ingpr F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 30, 2009
    2,566
    PR
    Full Name:
    David
    True, but these car you mention don't rev that high. You don't want your Ferrari engine detonate at 9k. Right?
     
  11. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    27,499
    Albuquerque, NM
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    David- You car is modified. Stock 360s and F430s have a fuel cut-off at around 8600 rpm, so they do not turn 9000 rpms. 100 octane fuel is even a waste on a 458, which does turn 9000 rpm.

    For stock Ferraris, 100 octane fuel is a waste of money.
     
  12. marknkidz

    marknkidz Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 7, 2004
    1,117
    so cal
    Full Name:
    mark
    I don't know...

    I run a 50-50 mix in my CS... and swear it runs better!! (could be in my head!! LOL)

    and the exhaust smell while warming up in the garage is intoxicating!!
     
  13. rmani

    rmani F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Nov 1, 2003
    6,827
    NJ
    Full Name:
    RMani
    $10/gallon good lord. i'll stick to 93 at $4/gallon
     
  14. Tired of seeing this ad? Upgrade now
  15. Trent

    Trent Formula 3

    Dec 10, 2003
    2,009
    Indialantic, FL
    Full Name:
    Trent
    The high RPMs do not really change the octane requirements. High RPMs require many other modifications namely:
    1. Springs that can get the valves closed fast enough as to not float. F1 RPMs require a gas to close them!
    2. Stroke is usually reduced to lower inertial loads on the piston and rods.
    3. Valves are titanium or filled with a light material, sometimes sodium.
    4. Lightning of rotational parts; Pistons, Rods, Crank
    5. Reducing parasitic losses from high RPMs like pulling a partial vacuum on the crank case, lighter oil, electric accessories (AC, Oil Pump, Water Pump).

    Then once you get those stratospheric RPMs like in F1 or Superbikes then you end up with a "tuned" RPM range, where at lower RPMs the motor is in a non linear power delivery range. Thus while driving it the RPMs must be kept above a minimum to keep the engine in its tuned range. Look at the HP / TQ curves for a F1 car or a super bike, or other vehicle with >10k limit. At lower RPMs you are making much less power / rpm than at high rpm.

    *my S1000RR revs to 14K RPM and its one liter 4 cyl and runs fine on 91 octane. Here is a video of a 14k redline on my superbike with overhead cams. Its INSANE!

    Fast Forward to 2:00 min into video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nsa6kq-qqIE
     
  16. RobD

    RobD Formula 3

    Nov 10, 2003
    1,180
    USA
    That video is amazing. How in the world can those valve springs maintain their action at those RPMs without floating? Crazy.
     
  17. Spdrcrj

    Spdrcrj Formula 3
    BANNED

    Apr 22, 2006
    1,093
    Full Name:
    Jim
    I have a tune in my CS for 93 octane fuel (and no cats) but the best "normal" out here in Vegas is 91. There are a few gas stations that sell 100 so I mix 9 gallons of 100 with 13 gallons of 91 to make 94 to keep it above the 93 it's tuned for. I've taken the car to 8500 rpms many times with no issues and have received lots of advice that my mixture is safe for the motor as long as I keep it above 93.

    My kart runs on 100 and smells like a race car, love it!
     
  18. MVDESQ

    MVDESQ Formula 3

    Nov 25, 2010
    1,519
    Greenwich, CT
    Full Name:
    Matthew & Kristen V.
    Back in the early 2000's many Sunoco stations in CT used to sell 94 octane for about 5 cents more than 93. The 91 was like 5 cents lower than 93. I used to use the 94 all the time in my 2001 BMW 330xi and never had any issues with it. I cannot seem to find the 94 octane stuff anymore. I wonder why?
     
  19. F430Rod

    F430Rod Formula Junior

    Feb 17, 2007
    474
    Orange County
    Full Name:
    Rod
    What most people don't understand is that "race" gas is not the same as regular gas.

    "100 octane" is simply a "knock" rating. Too many assume that gas quality is the same between 100 octane vs 91 octane. It's not.

    There are different types of 100 octane gasoline. Some get the knock rating that high simply by adding Tetraethyl Lead. This is the case with some aviation fuel.

    100 octane unleaded race gas is not the same. It has better burn capabilities.

    A typical 92 or 93 octane pump gas contains hydrocarbons that evaporate in a range from about 80 degrees F to over 400 degrees F. Good 100 Octane unleaded race gas contains hydrocarbons that evaporate from about 100 degrees F to 270 degrees F.

    The higher evaporation temperature means that it takes longer for vaporization to take place as well needing a higher temperature to do so. At wide open throttle, and as RPM increases, there is increasingly little time for evaporation to take place. The 100 octane race gas will vaporize more readily, and convert more chemical energy to mechanical energy than the 92/93 octane fuel, and therefore the 100 octane will make more power.

    Feel free to research.

    Now..how much more power is debatable.

    I look at it this way. Here in California, we only have 91 octane. Mixing it with 100 octane unleaded race gas should produce some additional power. Is it worth the extra money? Probably not.

    One other thing to note. When I first got my E46 M3 back in 2001, the octane rating for premium was actually 92 not 91. So Ferrari 360 engines were probably built with 92 octane minimum ratings in mind also...at least the earlier builds. I recall this octane rating changing some time in late 2001 or early 2002 here in California. I can't recall specifically.

    I'm not sure what the standards in europe are. I know the octane ratings are slightly different. I do get the impression the Ferraris were/are tuned from the factory with a higher octane rating than what we have here in California.
     
  20. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    27,499
    Albuquerque, NM
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Rod- Do some research. European octane is calculated using a completely different system than US octane rating, which is an average of two measures of octane. 100 octane unleaded, racing fuel or not, is a waste of money in a stock Ferrari and will not get you any additional hp.
     
  21. IDriveM5

    IDriveM5 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 2, 2012
    2,574
    Central Ohio
    Full Name:
    Raj
    I don't have anything to add to this thread.

    I just want to say thank you to the folks here who are offering technical discussion of both sides. It's actually interesting to me to read, so again, thank you.
     
  22. timba

    timba Karting

    Aug 20, 2012
    232
    Nor Cal
    Full Name:
    Tim
    This is like a Global Warming discussion; Science vs. 'gut feeling'
     
  23. netman

    netman Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Jun 17, 2008
    1,826
    OC SoCal
    Putting the HP and octane discussion to the side for a moment. What about the fact that the 100 octane fuel does not have the MTBE and other Ethanol additives which can cause failure of parts and hoses. I see it as give the money to a company in which I hold stock, or to the fcar dealer to make repairs.

    Let's not forget my biggest pet peeve. What is the reason 100 octane fuel prices do not fluctuate like that of lower octane fuel?
     
  24. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    27,499
    Albuquerque, NM
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    One more note on rpm. Octane and rpm are related because the faster an engine turns, the more ignition advance is required and that usually requires higher octane fuel, all else being equal. What the knock sensors on modern engines do is cut back on spark advance if they sense knock/pre-ignition. OEM ignition systems are designed to allow maxiumum advance at the octane fuel specified for the car. This also means modern cars, including Ferraris, will run on lower octane fuel, and the ignition system will just dial back on the ignition advance until the knock stops. That also means dialing back on peak power. There is a lower limit on octane where the system cannot retard the ignition far enough to prevent pre-ignition.
     
  25. F430Rod

    F430Rod Formula Junior

    Feb 17, 2007
    474
    Orange County
    Full Name:
    Rod
    It's debatable. Might as well agree to disagree on additional power and yes I know the ratings are different here in the US and Europe.

    The only thing I wanted to point out was that the gas is different. Racing gas does have better burn capabilities. Some were saying its the same. It is not.

    Other parts of the US has 93 octane in CA we only have 91. With 91 the timing has to be retarded somewhat. This means less than ideal power.

    Have you ever tried 100 octane racing gas? I have. I mixed in a few gallons. I felt a difference.

    The difference can be described as when the F430 is being driven in cooler weather vs hot weather.

    Also ran some in my E46 M3. I raced my friends E46 M3. While all cars are not equal my car was faster than his in the upper rpm range. It was pretty dead even but as we're approaching 7,900 rpm my car would start to inch ahead of his.

    We raced another time and I didn't get a chance to put in the 100 octane. He also switched his exhaust system though. The race was closer than before. These are my real world experiences with it. I'm just sharing it.
     
  26. netman

    netman Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Jun 17, 2008
    1,826
    OC SoCal
    All I run in my 360 and Diablo are 100 octane from the 76 station in Fullerton on Gilbert and Commonwealth.

    Been happy with the performance and believe I am extending the life of the parts normally damaged by Ethanol and other additives.

    It is my understanding vehicles manufactured 05 and later do not have to worry about Ethanol and additives.
     
  27. F430Rod

    F430Rod Formula Junior

    Feb 17, 2007
    474
    Orange County
    Full Name:
    Rod
    Hey...that's right in my neighborhood also. I've used the same gas station for 100 octane. I don't think I've ever seen your 360 though.
     

Share This Page