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Unobtainium Supplies: K-Jetronic (CIS) Plastic Fuel Line/Hose Restoration Kit

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Verell, Feb 20, 2008.

  1. robbie

    robbie F1 Rookie
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    Verell,

    This is like a soap opera .. where in the world is that tubing .. lost in space. :) Anyway, if you have an unsold tool can you give me the PayPal lingo to order one? Thanks.
     
  2. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    Hi Robert,
    All of this batch of tools are already allocated. Send me eMAIL & I'll put you at the head of the 'waiting for a tool' list.

    In addition to the line that should be arriving 'any day now' :{ for the April kits, I've still got the shipment of Cohline that was originally supposed to come in mid April, now scheduled for delivery in mid May. So there will be May kits.

    When I get 5 names on the 'waiting for a tool' list, I'll runoff another batch of 10 tools.
     
  3. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    SHIP DATE: Thursday 15 MAY 2 days later than last update's projection.

    Just got back from 2 wks travel w/o internet access.

    The special expedited order + May delivery order of 6mm line came in while I was out.

    However, the 5mm & 8mm line is currently enroute to me (order confusion).
    UPS tracking says delivery tomorrow (Wed. 14th).
    They're usually spot on, so I'm counting on them.

    I'll have boxes, shipping labels, & the 6mm lines cut & awaiting the other 5mm & 8mm lines. The kits should ship Thursday the 15th. If you ordered a tool from the initial run of 10 + a kit, they'll ship together.

    I've got enough line for 5 or 6 kits beyond what's already on order.
     
  4. lou staller

    lou staller Formula Junior

    Dec 21, 2002
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    Hooray! I can't wait to change out my fuel lines and see if the car's performance improves. The car seems to be running lean which could be caused by using fuel line that is slightly smaller ID then the factory size. You think?
     
  5. RGigante

    RGigante F1 Rookie
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  6. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    Lou, pls refresh my memory, which line(s) do you have that are smaller ID than factory? There are no 6mm OD lines with less than 2mm ID, & I don't know of a 5mm OD line with less than the OEM 3mm ID.

    Hmm, more likely you are either running 6mm OD x 4mm ID -> 1mm wall thickness, or 5mm OD x 3mm ID, both of which have 1mm wall thickness. It's believed that the too thin wall was flexing too much under pressure variations was causing the P* guys injector atomizer problems that gave lean running behavior. Another possibility is that the McMaster line you used was one of the softer nylons that would behave similarly to thinner walls. See the links to the Porsche 911 forum in the middle of this thread:
    308 F.I. plastic lines to injectors - Weak design?
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13095

    The only lines whose ID is quite critical are the injector lines & the WUR lines. The OEM injector lines were the most critical & used the now NLA 6mm OD x 2mm ID line. I'm importing Cohline's recommended replacement line: 6mm OD x 3.15mm ID. There is no 6mm line with a smaller ID than this that meets the other line specs.

    The OEM WUR lines are 5mm OD x 3mm ID, & the kit has the exact size.

    The OEM 8mm OD x 6mm ID fuel inlet & return lines are likely generous(kit has exact size). Even the 8mm OD x 5mm ID line would probably not lean you out unless you're running upwind of 300 hp at full throttle. Would be uncomfortable with the 8mm OD x 4mm ID tho.
     
  7. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    It's 10:30 PM & I"m just finishing up the last kits. I've been at this since 9:00 AM. Who'd have thought that cutting Cohline into various lengths, ziplock bagging it, & boxing it up would take so long. Obviously missed getting them to the post office today. They'll go out in tomorrow's priority mail, so you should be receiving them Tuesday or Wednesday.
     
  8. lou staller

    lou staller Formula Junior

    Dec 21, 2002
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    Received the line kit and tool yesterday. I plan on swapping out the lines I made using McMaster-Carr stuff within a few days. I'll take a look at the line sizes I used which I think is to small an ID for the injectors. (?) Verell, thanks again!
     
  9. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #84 Verell, May 20, 2008
    Last edited: May 20, 2008
    I'm taking orders for another run of the barb insertion tools to ship in mid June. The initial run was made of maple & steel. People report they are working quite well.

    The next run will most likely also be maple, altho there's so much machining time in even the maple tools that I'm seriously considering making a set of molds & casting the tools out of fibreglass/polyurethane composite to avoid having to raise the price.

    Price for the June '08 tool run will still be $95 each + $11.90 S&I.

    FUEL LINE KIT PRICE INCREASE:
    After 2 runs of kits, I've learned the hard way that it takes significantly longer than I initially estimated to make up the uel line kits. I thought I'd worked out ways to reduce the time/kit for the 2nd run. It did help, but the kits still took longer than my initial time/kit estimate. Also, shipping prices are higher than initially estimated as the kits are a bit heavier & require a box instead of a shipping envelope. As a result, I have to raise the prices. Starting immediately, the fuel line kit price is:

    $66.76 = $54.86/kit + $11.90 S&I


    I believe the kit price will be good until either Cohline prices change, or the post office raises their rates again.
     
  10. Brian Harper

    Brian Harper F1 Rookie
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    OK, now I've done it. I was working on the car last night and I set down a work light while looking for a dropped nut. The worklight was right on top of the fuel line that goes from the middle of the fuel distributor to the WUR and I melted the fuel line. I took the line to a local Volvo shop and they used a used piece of line and their tool to make up a new line with my fittings, but it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. There are definite grip marks on the line. I almost took the line home to put it on myself, but who knows if I would have fared any better.

    So what are my options? Can I get a foot of the 5mm x 3mm tubing from you Verell (or anyone with leftovers?), or do I have to buy the whole kit? Are there kits available right now?

    Hey, at least I didn't set the car on fire!

    I'm off to buy a flourescent drop light right now...
     
  11. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #86 Verell, May 30, 2008
    Last edited: May 30, 2008
    Brian,
    Unless the marks lool like actual cuts, they're most likely OK. But I know where you're coming from.

    I'm in the process of making up the kits for the June orders, can come up with a foot of 5mm Cohline for you. Send me $9.90 via PayPal to cover S&I & I'll get it in the mail to you.

    I'm still working off a backlog of all sorts of orders from being away 3 wks out of the last 5, I'm targeting the June kits to go out in a couple of weeks.
     
  12. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    I have received the Cohline for the June kits, again June is a sellout!

    Everyone ordered the CIS Barb Insertion Tools. I've started work on them, but it's going slowly looks like they will be ready to ship next week.
     
  13. DMaury

    DMaury Formula 3

    Mar 27, 2007
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    Verell, I have your next 20m or so of the 6mm Cohline sitting in my garage. As soon as my mechanic goes over the car later this week, and I'm sure I won't be needing it to redo any lines, I'll send it to you.
     
  14. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie
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    #89 uzz32soarer, Jun 18, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Would be great to see a kit for the Testarossa. For some reason the fuel lines on the RHS of the car are really prone to rust yet the LHS isn't too bad. Testa lines are all steel but have a 3" section of flexible plastic tube mounted in between the KE Jetronic fuel distribution heads and the lower inlet manifolds to cater for flex and vibration. The steel component of the lines gets badly affected by rust, but can be rebuilt by most brake and fuel line manufacturers using the original fittings and replacing the rusted steel lines. The part they can't seem to do is the black flex nylon section. Using the material in your kits, and owner could do this part themselves after their steel lines were rebuilt.

    The KE Jetronic on the Testarossa also uses a pair of fuel lines that are return lines from the presure regulator back to the distribution heads. They have a nut fitting on one end and a 10mm banjo (with barb) on the other end and the entire pipe is nylon, bar the end fittings. Testa has two of these, one about a foot long with a straight nut on one end and a shorter one, 5 inches long with a 90 degree end and nut on it. These are notorious for rusting and are a nightmare to replace. None of my local hydraulic, brake, pneumatic shops can reproduce the 10 x 1mm nuts that fir onto the Bosch presure regulators, let alone have a nut with a 90 degree barb on it.

    Here's a couple of pictures of the Testarossa presure regulator return lines, and their end fittings.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  15. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie
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    Both of these nut style fittings are unabtainium, but the straight one doesn't seem to cause issues. It's the 90 degree one that is the problem child.

    You can also see on the following images one side of a Testarossa KE JEtronic system. Follow the fuel lines from the distribution heads and you can see the series of flexible nylon lines and then the fuel lines continue on in steel right to the injectors. There is one other nylon lline each side, and this goes from the rear of the distribution heads to the cold start injector on the uper manifold (not fitted in this pic).

    Seems that a Testa kit would include approximately 88 inches of nylon line (plus 12 inches for screw ups?) and the two ends to fit to the fuel pressure regulators, one straight and the other 90 deg, both with barbs.
     
  16. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie
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    #91 uzz32soarer, Jun 18, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  17. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    What size are the lines?

    Most likely the injector lines are 6mm OD.

    Fuel distributor to/from warmup/pressure regulator - usually 5mm OD

    You didn't mention the following lines that are usually also plastic:

    Fuel distributor input from accumulator, & distributor return to fuel tank - usually 8mm OD, or else SS braided on Euro models.

    Cold start injector line - usually 6mm OD

    BTW, I've located a source for the straight barb w/M10x1 swivel nut,
    but so far no luck with the 90 degree barb fitting w/M10x1 swivel nut.

    I've just started researching the 90 degree barb fitting, it just wasn't in my on-hand reference material.

    I'm kind of buried the next 2 weeks with back-orders & making the June run of CIS barb insertion tools, but this is now on my list for work in July.
     
  18. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie
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    G'day from Oz. Actually I did mention the cold start line which is 6mm. The return from the distribution head to the presure reg also appears to be 6mm the same as the others. As my car is a late Euro spec, I don't have a warm up reg so sorry I missed that one.

    One less to replace I suppose. Hahaha.

    Ditto fot the return to tank lines. I can't see any plastic/nylon in those either.

    Great work on locating the straight barb. At a pinch it can fit onto the RHS but the line then needs to be longer as it will lay in a different place. Having access to a 90 degree barb and being able to remanufacture to stock look would be gold. Good luck.

    Rob.
     
  19. robbie

    robbie F1 Rookie
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    'tis mid June.. how's your tool supply? Is it order time? Robbie
     
  20. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    I'm working on the June tool run, so now would be a good time to order if you just need the tool.

    As for fuel line kits, June is almost a sellout. I've got one June fuel line kit still available.

    I expect to finish the June CIS barb insertion tool run & ship the June orders late next week, or the middle of the following week.
     
  21. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    I've done some modest redesign & made up manufacturing tooling for the CIS Barb Insertion Tool. I had to either find a way to cut the machining hours/tool significantly or else double the tool's price. I couldn't see doubling the price, so I opted to make new tooling to reduce the labor hours. However, As with all Ferrari projects, 'Everything takes longer...' applied to the new mfg. tooling's schedule. I've finally finished it today!


    Up side is I'm confident that you'll be delighted with the V2 tool. I'll post pix of the 1st complete one out of the tooling.
    Also, I'll be able to turn around future tool orders much more quickly,
    hopefully at a manufacturing cost that's consistent with the selling price.

    Down side is the June insertion tool/fuel line orders will start shipping Wednesday, 9 July. My apologies for the delay. I believe that with the new tool design shipments will be much more predictable.
     
  22. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie
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    Any news on the right angled barb fitting for the Testarossa?
     
  23. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    I don't expect to be able to do anything on the Testarossa 90 degree barb for several weeks. It is on my list, won't get forgotten. When I come up with them, I'll post it to this thread, & announce it in the TR forum.

    However, Am still working on a list of things I promised people back in Feb & March I'd supply. The list is getting a lot shorter tho, people don't want so much stuff during the driving season.
     
  24. DK2374

    DK2374 Rookie

    Jul 9, 2008
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    I'm interested as well.

    DK
     
  25. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    The tools are 90% made, all that's left is to drill & tap the holes for the thumbscrews. I'll definitely finish the tools today & post a couple of pix of the version 2 tools.

    The kits & tools will be packed up tomorrow(Thursday 10th) & ship Friday or possibly even late tomorrow PM.

    The redesign & changed mfg method has got the mfg time/tool down to about 2 hours, which is where I'd hoped it would be. The tools are going to be extremely consistently made with little room for mfg. error or tool to tool variablity.
     

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