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Unobtainium Supplies: K-Jetronic (CIS) Plastic Fuel Line/Hose Restoration Kit

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Verell, Feb 20, 2008.

  1. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    I've had a request to add the crush washers for the distributor(16), warmup regulator(4), cold start regulator(2), inlet fuel line(2), outlet fuel line banjo fittings to the kit.

    Everyone who's using the kit is going to need the crush washers. I took a very quick look, & it looks like including a set of new crush washers would add about $20 to the 3x8 kit's price, maybe another $30 to the 12 cyl kit's price.

    Is this a good idea?

    Regards,
    Verell
     
  2. mwr4440

    mwr4440 Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Verell,

    As a customer of yours I would (highly) recommend you offer it as an option.

    Some of the required goodies to fix these cars properly you guys can EASILY get in the US, yet can become a nightmare to obtain for those of us overseas or in remote parts of the US.

    Just a Thought.

    Mark
     
  3. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #103 Verell, Jul 12, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The V2 tool operates the same & has the same features as the V1 maple tool. I adjusted a few dimensions, & added as many refinements as I could think of such as tapered transitions on each end of the clamping areas. Then I carefully made a new tool with all the changes. Next I used the new tool as a pattern to make a mold.

    I still have to do a fair amount of machining on each piece such as drilling the guide holes the pins slide into as I can't count on molding them perfectly straight. Also, the keys have slots machined into the sides that the plastic flows into so they're locked into place. I have to drill the holes thru the square alignment keys, & tap one of the keys for the thumb-screw.

    Oh, yes, I finally located a thumbscrew with long enough threads for the tool. Now you won't have to fumble with an allen wrench!

    On the plus side, I've almost completely eliminated machining errors & tool to tool variability.

    One thing I've run into is that the mold is often trapping bubbles on the outer side of the tool. This is an outer surface phenomenon, the inner functional area is completely bubble free. The bubbles are cosmetic, they do not interfere with the tool's strength or operation in any way. Please ignore them

    As best I can tell the plastic is hardening before the bubbles can be eliminated. I'm trying to figure out a fix, but for now it's a 'feature' that makes each tool a little unique. ;)
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  4. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    This is from another thread, but figured it ought to be kept with the kit installation info:

    You're OK, A 2-4 mm length discrepancy shouldn't be significant.

    Everything I've read in the Bosch literature & various threads is consistent in saying that total length isn't as important as keeping the lengths closely matched to ensure all runs have the same characteristics.

    I'd say keeping the lengths matched within 5 to 6 mm would be OK(probably conservative) and closer would never hurt. I believe that it would be OK the actual length was even 4 or 5 cm longer or shorter, as long as all the lines were that length (& fit of course).
     
  5. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #105 Verell, Sep 24, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2008
    A professional technician recently wrote me. He said that while the scoring method I described is what the BOSCH doc. recommends, he said that the best way to remove the old fuel lines is:

    SAFEST & BEST METHOD:
    Use a heat gun (think industrial pistol hairdryer) that's sold by Sears & most Hardware stores for paint stripping & shrinking heat-shrink tubing. Use the gun to heat the lines till they almost start to melt. Once hot you can easily pull the softened line off using gloves, or can gently grab it with end cutting pliars as shown in the previously posted removal instructions.

    You MUST let the metal barbs cool to room temperature before inserting into new plastic line.


    This method avoids the risk of scratching the barb when scoring the tubing as previously described, and is makes removal much easier. It's also a LOT FASTER than the scoring method! I'm updating my instruction sheet to use this method.

    FIRE: RISKY BUT WORKS:
    I've had a couple of users say they burned the lines off w/o any trouble as the plastic burns at a pretty low temp. As soon as it starts burning they smother out the fire & pull the hot line off. I'm sure this works quite well. I feel the heat gun is safer, I don't like flame anywhere around fuel systems. One customer even wrote this precaution:

    However, I were in a pinch & didn't have a heat gun I'd probably heat them up with a propane torch, or burn them off . Just don't call me if you burn your car up doing this!
     
  6. mwr4440

    mwr4440 Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Some things I'd like to pass along that I learned to help the crowd contemplating doing this. I am about 75%+ done .........

    Patient: '81, 308 GTSi, North American.
    Attending Physician: College educated, non-mechanically inclined, moron.
    Equipment used: Various millimetric sockets and wrenches found in almost any tool box. Torque wrench. Verell’s FI Line Kit & Barb Insertion Tool, vice made by my wife while in Metal Shop 25 years ago, sharp garden shears and dish soap. Various cleaners.

    Changing Fuel Injector Lines:

    1) Do not wait!!!! Do it now!!!!!! Turns out, I had a fire in the making and did not know it (couldn't see the cut in the line). Car could have "gone-up" at any time. IT WAS BAD!!!

    2) Yes, you can do this without taking the plenum (sp?) off. You do have to remove part #115739 COLD START INJECTOR, ELECTRICAL (Thanx Daniel), however.

    3) Do one line at a time or mark them all (both metal ends and the fuel distributor) with the corresponding cylinder number. I did not do such a hot job, even w/pics, and had a bit of a mess to sort out (THANX to all that helped!!!).

    4) It took MANY HOURS to hand polish the metallic parts clean of 26 yrs worth of crud, dirt and rust. Machine polishing would have taken minutes. I prefer the “by-hand” method.

    5) Get new washers. Although I am not complete with the project, the sizes I have found so far are:

    a) ID:12 x OD:16 x Thick:1.5,

    b) ID:10 x OD:14 x Thick:1.0

    Measurements in millimeters, material: copper. Sourced them at a Bosch supplier over-the-counter in about 5 minutes. There may be other sizes as I am not yet finished w/the biggest diameter lines and couplings.

    6) Verell's kit is good on lengths for the replacement lines for my year and model. No issues.

    7) Verell's new change to getting the old stuff off the barbs (using heat instead of cutters); spot on!!!!

    8) Without Verell's FI tubing insertion tool and Palmolive Dish Soap, I could have just forgotten about the whole process. If you do not have one or something similar, GET ONE. Otherwise, take it to the shop ................... and "slap leather" (pull out your wallet) as it is near impossible without the (a) tool to insert the barbs in new line without the risk of bending or breaking something.

    9) Cut the new lines as closely as you can in length to the old lines. Measure them all as many will be slightly different lengths. Yes, mm's matter. I cut mine a little longer (+2.0~+5.0 mm) than original. Great idea, gone bad. Now a few of the lines touch hot metal in the bay as they now "bow" due to the increased length and stiffness of the line. ANYONE got a foot or so of “header tape” or some other good insulator they'd be willing to part with?

    10) WARNING!!! You could easily hurt yourself or WORSE!! EXTREME CAUTION MUST BE TAKEN!!!!!
    IN MY CASE, when reattaching the lines to the fuel distributor the torque listed in the Mondial 8 SM is insufficient. My couplings leaked like ... well, they LEAKED. I then tightened the bolts a little more than the specified torque and then "blew" the leaking fuel away using a can of compressed air. There was allot of fuel!!! It was too cold to just wait for the fuel to evaporate on its own, hence the compressed air. I then waited a few minutes for the potentially highly explosive fuel-air mix I created to dissipate. Then I pressurized the fuel system (without starting the car) using the procedure Birdman mentions in his injector cleaning post, “Hey, now my car won’t start.” I kept repeating this until they ALL stopped leaking and then snugged them up gently one last time. Careful folks, as those are steel bolts going into aluminum threads.

    11) While executing #10 above, the car was dead cold, all rings and watches off, no heat/spark sources of ANY KIND, and my dad was immediately ready with a fire extinguisher.

    Good Luck!!!!

    Verell, I’ll PM you later this week with another Unobtainium parts order.
     
  7. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #107 Verell, Oct 16, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  8. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    I'm getting a lot of requests for replacement SS braided fuel line to go with my plastic line kit.

    The US Spec cars & I believe all 328s used SS braid covered polyamide line for the high capacity lines:
    - Line between the fuel accumulator & fuel filter
    - Supply line to the fuel distributor
    - Return line from the fuel distributor
    - Line between distributor & frequency valve

    Unfortunately, I don't have access to a car with SS braided lines. I'm pretty sure that only one SS line size is used for the 3x8s & Mondials, but need to know the exact line ID & polyamide wall thickness.

    The Euro & some other cars use 8mm OD x 6mm ID plastic line in these locations. I have located a source for 6mm ID SS braid covered line which I suspect is what was used for these lines. It's several times the price of the same size plastic line, but not prohibitive.

    After the SS lines are slipped onto the barb, a small SS sleeve crimped around the ends to ensure a tight fit & to prevent the SS braid from unraveling. I have located the correct size ss sleeves to go with the line I believe to be correct.

    The hand crimping tool for the SS sleeves is prohibitively expensive: over $600!!!

    What I really need is a line that I can dissect, measure, & use to develop means for old line removal, barb insertion & crimping the sleeves. Does anyone have an old line that I could buy or steal for this purpose?

    Alternatively, have any of the professional shops out there got the crimping tool & would be willing to provide a line restoration service?
     
  9. DMaury

    DMaury Formula 3

    Mar 27, 2007
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    Verell, I have the pair of hoses that run to and from the fuel distributor unit left over from the restoration of the 328. I can have them out to you tomorrow.
     
  10. RGigante

    RGigante F1 Rookie
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    Verell, I believe I still have all the old lines, but some don't have the connector at the end. I'll check when I get home and maybe send you a picture of what I have.
     
  11. Gerry328

    Gerry328 Formula 3
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    I am also interested in replacing the SS fuel lines. Finishing my fuel line replacement project and was hoping to replace thses lines as well.
     
  12. Gerry328

    Gerry328 Formula 3
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    Follow-up. I went ahead and bought the SS fuel lines that were available from Daniel at Ricambi. They were outrageous, but I want to at least finish the fuel line replacement at that side of my car. Also one of the lines looked as though it was pinched. The line from the accumulator to the fuel filter is not available.

    As noted by Verell, he believes these are the SS braid covered polyamide lines. It makes sense given the small diameter, rubber would seem to result it a very small ID. I roughly measured the OD of my line and it is about 11mm. Verell notes a 8MM size, my measurements could off. In addition to the line we would need small SS sleeve to be crimped.

    If I can get the line and sleeves I expect I can find someone in Chicago to assemble the line and crimp the sleeves.
     
  13. RGigante

    RGigante F1 Rookie
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    #113 RGigante, Jan 15, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    As promised.
    Here's a picture of one of the lines from fuel distributor to metal line and from fuel accumulator to fuel filter. Sorry, I don't have the other line for the fuel distributor.
    They're yours if you think they might help. Just PM me your address.
    This is from a Euro 328
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  14. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    Hello rui,
    The line with the two connectors would be a big help as I don't have either connector.
    You've got eMAIL.
    Verell
     
  15. Gerry328

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    #115 Gerry328, Jan 20, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2009
    I could not find a industrial hose distributor in Chicago that would build me the SS hose to the filter. They did say if I brough them the parts, they could assemble the hose for me.

    I called Cohline, and they sent me to Malone Speciality in Ohio. Verell, do you know the size of the fittings?
     
  16. RGigante

    RGigante F1 Rookie
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    My pleasure, Verell.
    It will be in the mail tomorrow.
     
  17. DMaury

    DMaury Formula 3

    Mar 27, 2007
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    Verell, did you get the two lines my wife sent you yet?
     
  18. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    No, figured they'd come today, but no sign of them. Since Monday was a holiday, they may not get here till tomorrow. Do you have a tracking #?

    No, that's why I'm looking for sample lines to measure. My suspicion is that they're the same size as the plastic lines used in the same locations on the earlier euro cars which is 8mm ID. I'm hoping so because I've got a source for 8mm ID SS braided line.
     
  19. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #119 Verell, Jan 21, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2009
    DMaury,
    Just stumbled upon them, they were delivered to the wrong door yesterday. Apparently a new driver who can't read the "Please deliver to this door --->" sign.

    Will dissect them later this week.
     
  20. Iain

    Iain F1 Rookie

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    #120 Iain, Jan 21, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2009
    If its of any help, I had the two braided lines that run too & from the fuel distribuutor head made up for my (UK) 328 before Xmas - parts number 117885 and 117787 - by a company called Pirtek here in the UK. I believe they have outlets in the States too.

    All the fittings used can be found in this catalogue: http://www.pirtek.co.uk/pdf/catalogue_sections/cat_section14.pdf

    Part numbers

    1 x 899-12-04
    1 x 874-14-04
    2 x 818-08-04
    4 x SP1-04

    Just search the PDFs to find the parts - but repeat the search a couple of times - there are some similar parts that have similar numbers i.e. 3818-08-04 instead of just 818-08-04

    The braided hose has a part number of 100STH-04 & can be found in this catalogue: http://www.pirtek.co.uk/pdf/catalogue_sections/cat_section13.pdf. Catalogue says its 1/4" / 6.96mm ID hose


    I seem to remember the guy that assembled them turned a small chamfer on one of the fittings for me to make it better match the original - but I can not remember which one.

    My original hoses had strange adapters on the end that joins to the solid fuel pipes - male to female or female to male - can't recall which. It looked as if Ferrari got the nearest match of hoses but need to do a gender change on that end, so they just stuffed a couple of adapters in the lines!

    We decided that these joins were just one more opportunity for a leak & so we did away with them & terminated the hoses with the correct fittings to go straight onto the pipes.

    I'm going back to get my accumulator-fuel filter hose done in due course.



    I.
     
  21. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    BTW, any chance you measured the total length of SS braided fuel line on your car? The cars that use 8mm OD polyamide line instead of SS braid take:

    distributor inlet line 36 cm
    distributor return line 34cm
    frequency valve line 45cm
    TOTAL: 115 cm


    accumulator to filter: ??? (I need the length as this line is always ssbraided.)


    To allow for assembly mistakes while learning, I will round the total ss braided line length up to the the half-meter multiple longer than the longest individual line. This algorithm has been working well for the other line lengths. eg: If the accumulator to filter line is 25cm, the total would be 140cm. Extra allowance for the longest length line would be 45cm so I'd ship 185cm rounded up to 2meters.

    Do these lengths pretty much match your cars? Am I overlooking a ssbraided line?
    'Gards,
    Verell
     
  22. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    As soon as I hear from you on the line lengths, I believe I can supply the various fittings, sleeves, & SS braided line. I've requested quotes, should hear from in a day or so.

    I propose to supply the following:

    0) K-Jetronic (CIS) Fuel Line Restoration Kit - This is the kit i've been selling all along.
    Sufficient Correct 5mm, 6mm, & 8mm polyamide line to restore the injection system.

    1) K-Jetronic (CIS) SS Fuel Line Restoration Kit - This is a new kit with SS braid covered line & sleeves.
    Sufficient Correct 5mm, 6mm, & SS braid covered 8mm polyamide line & sleeves to restore the injection system.

    2) SS Braided line & sleeves for a 308/328/Mondial - Buy this if you're just redoing the SS lines.

    If you need to have a complete line made up, I'll also supply the following fittings:
    -Conical nipple with swivel nut
    -90 degree nipple with swivel nut
    -Banjo fitting.

    I've considered supplying completed lines, however, I just can't afford the necessary liability insurance. I've come across this on several web sites selling fuel line components:
     
  23. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #123 Verell, Feb 7, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2009
    I was able special order the lines & sleeves from CohlineGMBH in Germany, Just made the deadline for their early March container shipment. I ordered enough SS braided line & sleeves for 10 308/328/Mondial kits:

    The 308/328/Mondial SS line kits contain enough SS braid covered 6mm ID line & 24mm long crimp sleeves to restore the following SS braided lines:
    - Distributor inlet line
    - Distributor return line
    - Distributor to Frequency Valve line
    - Fuel Pump to Accumulator line
    As with the other kits, there's enough extra line & 2 extra sleeves to allow for a mistake or two while learning.

    I'll be happy to quote kits for other models if you'll supply the length & quantity of each SS line for that car.

    Here is what you can now order:

    K-Jetronic (CIS) Fuel Line Restoration Kit, 308/328/Mondial - $54.86/kit: Sufficient Correct 5mm, 6mm, & 8mm polyamide line to restore the injection system. (This is the 3x8 kit i've been selling all along.)

    K-Jetronic (CIS) SS & Plastic Fuel Line Restoration Kit, 308/328/Mondial - $76.22/kit: Sufficient Correct 5mm, 6mm, & SS braid covered 6mm ID polyamide line & sleeves to restore the injection system. (ie: The above 3x8 kit with SS braid covered line & sleeves instead of the 6mm ID plastic lines.)

    SS Braided fuel line & sleeves kit, 308/328/Mondial - $38.31: SS braided line & sleeves to restore the SS lines listed above. If you've already got the plastic line kit, order this kit to redo your SS lines.

    Shipping & Insurance is still: $11.90/kit.

    You can also order the following new replacement fittings for use with either the plastic or SS braided 6mm ID fuel line:

    24mm long crimp sleeve - $0.50

    Conical nipple with M14x1.5 swivel nut - $2.50

    90 degree nipple with M14x1.5 swivel nut - $7.75

    Banjo fitting for 6mm ID line w/12mm thru-hole for M12x1.5 banjo bolt- $3.50


    To order, please click on my name by this post & select: [Send eMAIL to Verell]

    (Please make sure your profile has your current eMAIL address.)
     
  24. Gerry328

    Gerry328 Formula 3
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    Ordered kit and some extra parts. Sent email.
     
  25. RGigante

    RGigante F1 Rookie
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    Verrel, did you get the lines I've sent you?

    Did anyone here had the metal fuel lines replated? I'm considering doing that but wouldn't I need to very carefully clean the inside after that? Maybe using compressed air?
     

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