I bought my first 308 a few months back (1981 GTSI). I love to drive this car, but the a/c and heating systems leave a lot to be desired. I'm sure the question has been asked, but would it be possible to put in more modern heat and a/c systems in these cars?
Can you fill out your profile so at least we know where you are located? It can help you receive better answers. I had Exoticars (in Pittsburgh) put in a new one in my 85 308. It is the same one they put in GM cars (same fit/bolt-on). I searched the technical forum of F-chat and found some other ideas from members.
Really? That's great! May I ask how much that cost and are you happy with the results? Can I find Exoticars in the phone book, or do you have a number for them? My car has been refitted with a 2.8 liter GM engine and transmission. I'll get the profile filled out too. Thanks
MREUS: I contacted Exoticars and they put a guy on the phone by the name of Joe, who does all their Ferrari work. He speaks with some kind of heavy accent. Does this sound like the guy who did your work? Anyway, he said to get the a/c improved he would replace the compressor, a/c dryer and expansion valve. Didn't mention anything about whether the replacement components would be G.M., but I didn't ask either. Said it would cost about $500 bucks. Does this sound like what you had done? Thanks
I'm confused. You first said you have a 308 GTSi. Now you say it has a GM 2.8 liter engine and tranny. Is that right? If so, your questions about what 308 owners do is completely irrelevant. You have a GM engine. The compressor unit for that would be whatever GM used as a bolt on to that engine, not what someone would bolt onto a 308 GTSi. As far as the other components in the car go, if you convert over to R134A, you need a new receiver/dryer unit, and you might have to change the seals. A/C is fairly universal. You can go to any good A/C shop and they should be able to help you sort it out, especially if you are dealing with a bolt-on to a GM engine. Uggg.... a 308 with a GM engine... sending chills down my spine. Who would do such a thing???
It's a 1981 308 GTSI retrofitted with a GM engine and tranny. Well, I wouldn't say my questions are complete irrelevant. The compressor unit is only one component of the system. The car still has all the other components that originally came on the Ferrari. The blower fan, for example, doesn't move a lot of air in these cars. Each to his own I suppose. I understand why some Ferrari enthusiasts wouldn't like what's been done to the car, but it works for me. Some get a little snooty about it, but the reality is a stock 308 doesn't perform to the standards of most sports cars today. If you want that kind of performance, you'll need to make some kind of modifications. If you dont' believe that, next time you find yourself beside a 350Z at a traffic light, rev up your engine a bit and see who makes the 1/4 mile in the fastest time. I've always liked having something a little different. And whether you agree or disagree with the engine conversion, it's still a fun car.
What I see here is a great project car. I'm sure you can find a 308 drivetrain, restore it then retrofit it into the car and regain quite a bit of the value. While you're doing the rebuild you can drive the car the way it is. The only hope is that the car hasn't been modified too intensly to ever go back to stock. Of course, all of this assumes you would WANT to go back stock. What I think you will find here, and I agree, is that a 3x8GTx is a Ferrari drivetrain with a pretty Fiat body wraped around it. To me, the car is the drivetrain. Still, that's just one (silly) man's view. Regards, Rick '79 308GTB
Well, for me the engine conversion is a plus, primarily because it's less costly to maintain. Now, I know I may get clobbered for asking this, but unless your goal is to have a concours car, what's wrong with having a retrofitted engine that offers similar performance, lower maintenance costs, more parts availability, and easier servicing? I'm very sincere in asking this. Don't get me wrong - I have a lot of respect for the Ferrari heritage, name, and pedigree, but it's the lines, style and uniqueness of the car that attracts me most, and I dont' think I'm alone. I mean, if it's performance you want, you could take that $25k or more you paid for your 308 and buy a Corvette, 350Z, and a number of other newer sports cars that would blow the doors off your 308, while enjoying better creature comforts, less maintenance costs, etc, etc, etc. So, help me guys. What am I missing?
Without doubt, many modern cars will out perform most 308s - but that's not why we own them. We own them for what they are, not just how they look or how they perform. My '79 308GTB is my first and third Ferrari. Yes, I have owned this car TWICE. I want it to be as close to factory correct as it can be. THAT, for me, is the appreciation of the car. I have never shown the car nor do I ever intend to do so. My car is for me. And please know that I am not judging you for your tastes or preferences. I state only mine. I once put a chevy engine in a '66 Jaguar 3.8 S-Type. It ran great - and I hated it. Add to that, I destroyed the value of the car. Sold it for $1200. I will never do that again. Back to your point: There are lots cheaper ways to go fast than paying the premium of a Pinninfarina body. As you state, a Corvette is mondo-horsepower for the buck. I believe that will find that most of us think of Ferrari as the drivetrain, not the sleek body. I guess the bottom line is, if you enjoy your car you are getting out of it what you bought it for. It is, however, unrealistic to expect the Ferrari community to endorse your modified car any more so than the Porsche community would endorse a 911 with a Corvair engine. With best regards, rick '79 308GTB #28133
OK lets see some pictures. Are you sure this isn't a 308 kit car on a Fiero body. It would be interesting to see how this conversion is done. Also if it is GM then you can put in a 350 V-8 if you want some HP. So lets see the pictures . No one here buys a 308 as a drag car nor for top end speed , they buy it because it is a Ferrari .
Joe (Giuseppe) did all of the work on my car. I am very impressed and wished that I lived closer so that I could continue to take it to him. If I ever open a used Ferrari/Exotic Car shop out in SoCal, I would extend an offer to Joe to be the technician. I had a 2007 Corvette Z06 on order and cancelled it for my 308. I got the speed bug out of my system with my previous Z06. I bought the Ferrari because it put a HUGE grin on my face just driving it at normal speeds. Since the early 80 308s are known as being slow, I can see why you put in a different motor. I, personnally, would have put a turbo charger on the stock Ferrari engine if I was looking for more power. But, then again, you would still be stuck with $5,000+ service every 5,000 miles.
Hey Steve, Yep, I'm sure of what it is. See the link Tillman posted (thanks). I also have the title. Your last sentence says it all - my point exactly. Likewise, I bought mine for the same reason - because it IS a Ferrari. Love your novels by the way.
Thanks for the tip about Joe and Exoticars. I live in VA, so he's only a 6 or 7 hour drive for me. By the way, I didn't put the motor in. It was already in there when I bought the car. Given that it's already been done, I may look into putting something else in later. A 350 Chevy should work since the Fiero guys have already made kits for linking that engine up to the Fiero tranny.
Skewz-me, the pictures look great, not sure about the engine bay picture. I should point out that we are all petrolheads which is why we own cars like these. I do not agree with the idea of any other engine in a Ferrari, other than a Ferrari engine. Of course even if you modify the original Ferrari engine with a turbo or even nitro, you could argue it is no longer as Enzo intended. Lets face it many of us change the stock wheels, again not as Enzo intended I guess Skewz-me as gone a step or two further but each to their own. I was never really a Ferrari fan as a kid, ironically love mid-late 60's and very early 70's American Muscle cars, but I bought my Ferrari for the sound, the feel, and the looks. My Mondy most would say does not compare to the looks of a 3x8 at all, I would beg to differ, but what it does do is sound and feel like a Ferrari. I hope you enjoy your car and am sure you will
Well, I'm still on the fence about replacing the CIS on my Fcar, even knowing it was legislation, not design that put it there. If you've driven an american V8 and a Ferrari one, you'll see why the engine is the "heart" of a Ferrari. Your's has a Jarvik 7. I can't speak for a GM engine, but on most Ferraris, if you think the heating needs help, then you have to clean your heating core air filters. I can heat my whole house by pulling the warm Ferrari into the garage. The aircon is minimal in a stock Ferrari, because the larger a compressor you put on the car, the more ponies you're pulling off the engine. (That's why a large minivan with a small engine can't outrun a tranked snail in summer.) The Ferrari has a fairly small cabin, but a large "greenhouse" area, and doesn't use stock tinted windows. So it may take a while to cool the interior if it's been left out in the sun. Also, putting the thermostat in the console wasn't great engineering -- even my tan console will get to 120F in the sun. And the ammonia tube thermostat is right out of a Coke machine. (I found it on a GE Industrial web page.) Curiously, the application notes for the GE unit warned against mounting with the probe tip on a vertical run ... which is the way it's mounted in 3x8s. Frankly, air conditioning wasn't a high priority on these cars. (And Enzo was stll alive for the design through the 328s.) That's probably why most people here recoil in horror at the idea of a GM mill in a Ferrari: they know the priorities behind the cars: First the engine, then the handling, then the looks, ... and everything else was way down from there. Without the engine, it's only a shell. Ever considered at a Pantera? Ever seen those horror movies where the mad scientist brings back his dead wife/gf as a zombie/robot/whatever? That's a Ferrari without it's engine: No soul. Frankenrari. If you're looking for comfort and performance, why go with a Ferrari shell? My EVO has good heating and aircon, and goes like stink. But it's no Ferrari.
That seems to be the overall consensus, but if that's truely the case, let's do a little thought experiment: Lets suppose you have to choose between two sports cars to own for the rest of your life. You can never buy or drive anything else. Your first choice - a car like mine. A Ferrari 308 set up with a GM engine and tranny. Your second choice - a Pontiac Fiero set up with the Ferrari engine and tranny taken out of the first car. Other than the engine swaps, each car is stock. If you truely feel the Ferrari engine is the #1 priority, you would choose the number two car. What car would you choose? Stop for a moment and think about yourself driving a Pontiac Fiero around, but knowing you have the Ferrari "heart and soul" under the hood. Can you honestly say that would be your choice? If the answer is no, I submit the engine may not be your #1 priority. Romantic words, but can you be more specific as to what that actually means to you? I did drive several 308's during the time period I was shopping for one. In the end however, this was the one I chose.
I have also thought about going through the HVAC. As expected, the Porsche 911 guys have an entire cottage industry devoted into improving the A/C. It usually involves converting to a Sanden rotary compressor (which the late Ferraris did anyway) and an uprated fan, evaporator and condensor - all in all, the matched portions of the system. Check in the Porsche mag Excellence for some of the specialists. The small but more efficient pieces may cross fit At least in the case of my Mondial, I went through and found numerous LEAKS (e.g. deteriorating foam and ducting connections) in the terricle ducting system causing inefficiencies which were repaired, and replaced the infamous cheap ass plastic center duct with a more efficient larger anodized billet aluminum piece that actually could be pointed toward the driver. I would bet that similarly aged 308/328 cars would be similar. The ducting system is so poopy on these cars that the fan is too anemic to move enough air. If I could find a larger fan I would, but then you run into the problem of the MARGINAL wiring on these cars for amperage load. As said before, cleaning the evaporator and condensor and optimizing the ducts and vents may go a long way and be the best value added soultion. I'm all open for other's ideas. best rt Image Unavailable, Please Login
Skewze-me , I like it. I've done various conversions of chevys in Jaguar XKE's and XJ's and XJS's as well as Volvo's which turned out super. This looks like a good deal but was it done without any cutting or welding ? So can you put the car back to stock. Also it looks like you have an auto trans. but can you put in the manual. I'd dump the V-6 and go for a TPI 350 Corvette motor . I see the Fiero conversion folks have adapter kits to do this and provided that there is no height issues this would be a super conversion. The only thing you'll miss is that Ferrari engine wailing but instead it'll sound like a Corvette. Enjoy the ride. Also do you know who did the conversion? I'd like to talk to the guy.
Thanks. Glad to have at least one approval. This car is a 5 speed. I would not have bought it if it were an automatic. As for putting it back to original, not sure I want to. I don't think I'd gain much if any value. When I first saw it, bidders on Ebay had run the price up to about $15k with almost 4 days remaining (that's in the ball park of stock 308's). The $19,995 Buy It Now was still an option, so I took it. I still think it was a great buy. For right now, I just want to enjoy it. If it's still putting smiles on my face in a year, I may go with the TPI 350. The guy who did it builds custom cars, primarily on Boxsters. His website is www.kitcar.cc Not sure how much cutting/welding took place, but he used the entire subframe/engine cradle from the Fiero. The rear wheels, brakes are Fiero.
Engine *and* handling. My instinct would be to avoid both. If it were between a Ferrari with a Fiero body kit and a Ferrari with a GM engine, I'd take the real Ferrari with the ugly body. On the driving versus appearance issue ... Heck, mine isn't even red. Does that answer your question? If you couldn't tell the difference, then it probably won't matter to you on your commute. But you already have the Frankenrari, and are in defensive mode, so I won't talk about a flat torque flat crank V8 and the friction circle. It's when the back end *doesn't* step out on you at the apex that you appreciate these mills. --- But check the air filters on your heater cores, if you're not getting enough heat.
Craig: Could you tell me more specifically what Exoticars did to the a/c and how well it cools? Joe does all the work on my 308 and is a heck of a mechanic (and a good guy too).
Hey DGS, Didn't mean to sound defensive. I guess I don't understand the Frankenrari comments and occassional looks down the nose, but I suppose it's human nature. There's probably some guy out there with a 355 or 360 that would snub you for having a 20+ year old Ferrari. Go figure. I posed the engine questions because I kind of suspected it might be like the kings clothing story, but I admit I may be wrong on that point.
They said that the one that was installed was not cooling well (relative to other 308s) or was going bad. They replaced it with a bolt-on compressor that GM cars use. Other independent Ferrari shop do the same. I have not had the opportunity to test it as I am waiting for it to be shipped out to Southern California. If you call Exoticars, either Howard or Joe can explain it better.
