Upgrade or Stock?

Over the yrs I've found that the absolute sweet spot is 325-350hp. Not saying 500+isn't fun but it's also a handful!

 

Crank or wheel? I'm thinking wheel?

My 1st engine was 300 wheel and did nothing that required much care from the driver. The 2nd engine was just over 500 wheel hp and required a good deal of care so somewhere in between must be a sweet spot and 700 is right out?

 

Preferably wheel, but it's still a good number for crank. That's the point though, that range is the sweet spot so that you're not wrestling the car down the road. 500 is nutty, 700 and the chassis is actively trying to kill you vs 500 being aggressively indifferent to your survival.

The chassis is twitchy, it's a tiny car for the power output. Simply just not rigid enough for high tq. To me the Alfa 4C is the modern 308, tiny, CF tub and turbo. It's a freaking go cart, it's what a 308 would drive like if the chassis was improved.

 

years ago I helped a buddy put a 429? in a fox body mustang and within a month the rear window was leaking because of the flexing as a reaction to the torque in the driveshaft...equal and opposite lengthwise twist and the window leaks. In a 308 though the engine/trans are bolted together so no torque transferred through the chassis, its a pure bending load and the frame is very strong in that direction.

The 308 issue is the short wheel base mostly i think. That was a thing in the 60s/70s and honestly I think they made a last minute change to shorten it an inch whic is why the driveshafts are offset for no other obvious reason. The short wheel base makes it a bit unstable so its prone to spin, they addressed that on the 288. The the mushy suspension lets it move around quite a bit, the chassis stiffness itself is about where a miata is and they do quite well on the track and I know I've brought home a few best in class autoX finishes with mine...its not great but certainly workable once the springs and shocks are swapped and it settles right down once you get out of the power. Its a good car, I have nothing bad to say about it really.

 

The GTB is far less chattery then the S, esp on rough roads. The S also flexes a bit in the twisty bits. Are they noodles? No. I'm also spoiled with CF tub chassis that offer zero movement.

Suspension, brakes and chassis are in my opinion best suited to ~300 Max, change the brakes and suspension and then getting closer to 400 offers the best given the wheel base and track. Beyond that it's mr toads wild ride.

However all that aside, the real problem is the gear ratios and lack of a 6th gear. The Italians have offered to fix that with a 6th but it sacrifices reverse...

 

My solution with the last setup was make it a 4spd by ignoring 1st but that was a blower so boost from idle so no need for 1st gear.

There I think is the rub....stuff needs to match at least mostly. I never had an issue really with the stock brakes but did switch to pads that better handle heat. The springs/shocks however are setup mostly for cruising and hard driving more than hp quickly finds their limits but adding hp generly means you plan to drive harder more often and that means a spring/shock change is needed.

Chatter generally means the shocks are too stiff for the conditions but could also be springs I guess. I'm running 800/500 lb/in and they seem fine but the drive time with them is still limited and I didn't go looking for BAD roads yet but on normal rural PA bad they are fine, no hint of chatter.

My biggest issue with the GTS has been chassis balance. Relatively low torsional stiffness in the frame means there are limits what what you can do to transfer cornering loads F/R so normal stuff like too much over steer and the normal response of more front sway bar to use some of the front grip to help the rear but that doesn't really work out all that well when the chassis just twists and all you've done is hurt front grip so both end let go . Squishy chassis means rear grip issues need to be solved in the rear, so tire choice, ride height, camber and such then it just is what it is. But its pretty good,

 

I always find this topic interesting. I like the 308 for what it is, not necessarily for what it isn’t. What I like best about the 308 is that you can extract 80% of the cars performance in normal street use, can’t say that about the more powerful V8 versions. The 308 makes you feel like you are actually going fast when you really aren’t primarily due to the ride height, engine revs and sound. Fortunes have been spent trying to modify these cars. For the amount that is being spent, you could just purchase one of the next variants in the line. The factory has already done this work for us.

 

I'd say yes to all that, but there are a lot of thinks about a 308 there were "fixed" on the newer cars that I personally like about the 308. It's pretty small, I like that. More importantly I graduated HS in 1983, this was the car I wanted and couldn't have back then so a newer model simply won't do. That means the time and money I spend don't really matter that much because it's a toy I enjoy playing with not an investment. I like my 308, I like driving fast...a bit of time/money means I don't need to choose and I can still drive slow when the mood moves me

 

Would I update the engine? Yes. But only because my engine is damaged and my update choice would be trying to save the engine by going the Nick Forza Big Bore option.

Also, as an example, for my Mercedes 1972 W108 I would consider converting to electric as an upgrade

 

The only way I'd want to do anything like this is like Rod wrote, if the engine were blown for whatever reason. And then I'd probably do something... maybe?

But to take a perfectly running 308 and "upgrade" it to me is kind of nuts.

I put in the new fuse block because that's just one of those... why WOULDN'T you do that? I doubt I'll do much else except maybe looking into the window motor boosters if after I clean all the old grease out of the motors they're still too slow.

But other than that... nope.

I have a fast car well "fast" is relative I guess... over 600 to the wheels Shelby GT500 and I putter around in that car and very VERY rarely even get into boost... mostly probably because I'm older now and it just doesn't interest me.

I like to enjoy driving, not worry about killing someone because I'm driving like a maniac (that too comes with age), or worrying about getting a ticket or whatever else comes along with driving like a maniac.

So would I modify a 308... no. I wouldn't buy a 308 if I was looking for a "fast" car I'd buy something else.

 

I don't think there is any ambiguity. Any Ferrari is the engine (the feel, the sound, the clinking metallic shift gates, etc). Put any other engine in it, no matter how powerful, and it's no longer a Ferrari, nor even a facsimile of a Ferrari. I don't say that in the elitist sense, I just mean that the driving character of what makes Ferrari's unique would be destroyed by replacing it with any non-Ferrari engine.

I have driven an injected 308 and I definitely get the desire for more power, but the power issues were a byproduct of the limits of the fuel injection used at that time, which were necessitated then to meet emissions requirements. Mod the existing motor to make it work for you, but I can't honestly see anybody being happier with an engine-swapped 308 than the original car no matter how much power the new engine put out. The visceral experience of the standard car/engine combo can't be duplicated with any other (non-Ferrari) engine in my opinion.

 

Back in the day you could take your 308 to the dealer and they would install ferrari high compression pistons, ferrari P6 cams and I think a bigger venturi in the carbs and send you out the door pushing 280-300hp.It would be a bit ornery because it was a lot of duration for carbs but it was a ferrari designed and dealer installed modification. It was expensive so going to a Boxer probably made more sense but it was offered so that is still factory right?

Same pistons and cams in an injected car with an efi conversion will make that power and behave about stock. A QV done to similar spec will easily top 300. Add a 360 crank and maybe porting and 350 is realistic. Lots of options at rebuild time to keep it ferrari and add the hp Enzo wanted it to have.

...they don't have to be slow.

 

My 89 is fast enough for me, I outran a 330 HP inline 6 semi modern BMW 3 series on the 110 Freeway years ago. People forget about the aero dynamics of the 328 / 308 they really slice through the air, no body ever talks about or accounts for it. My car is quick enough, and the driving experience is second only to the 355 / F40 . You get what Im saying. Ive just about restored everything on my 328, less the carpet. The paint is still very good, the upgraded wheels will allow me to smoke most other less talented / ballsy drivers in the canyons, and that is good enough for me. With my Tubi / Larini / K & N, I dont feel a want or need to do anything else. Im grateful I was able to rebuild the suspension with all OEM parts as well. I talked with Forza a long time ago and was impressed with the ignition upgrade he offers, I just didnt want to change the stock aesthetics of the engine or spend the money, I know its good stuff, Im just not in the mood to do anything else to the car . Like I said before, my motorcycles are so fast, you would **** your pants if you had those power to weight ratios under your ass, its that simple. The acid test for me, over the last several years is the high speed 73 to the 55 right hand sweeper, in Newport Beach, with clear pavement, I can be in 4th gear and take that corner at 100 MPH , with a dip in the freeway , and my car does not skip a beat. That is pretty incredible for a 34 year old Ferrari, solid as a rock , makes my heart skip a beat !!

Big G,

 

I do have that kind of power to weight ratio, a whole lot more grip, and no fear of flipping over backwards.....with a gorgeous 308 body, I'm not sure what else I could want in life?

There are a handful of 800+hp 308s out there that will give about any street motorcycle a serious run for its money. All but mine are turbos I guess and I'm still not officially in the club as I don't have a dyno sheet to prove it yet but the V12 is definitely faster than the the supercharged V8 that dyno'd at 600hp/420ftlb (24psi boost) so its for sure in the ballpark and for sure the fastest thing I've ever driven or riden and I used to race motorcycle.

 

I was not specifically talking about your 308, I think its cool that you have a V12 !! Its still a Ferrari, I was just saying that I was happy with my 89. And 800 HP in anything is not going to give my motorcycles a run for the money. The 1000 HP slot car can barely keep up with a stock Busa, once you start to turbo a Busa, or run a big block like mine, thats trouble, and that video with the new Busa, its down on HP from a Gen 2 Busa, a stock Gen 2 Busa will beat the plaid slot car. Power to weight really comes into play once on the freeway and you do a roll on , no plaid is going to beat me from 100 MPH to 170 MPH , not way in hell !! ,and no way anything with 800 HP for that matter either !! lol

Big G

 

For clarity, there is a very significant performance difference with GTS/GTBi and other iterations of that engine. There's nothing wrong with the engine (it had plenty of power with carbs), it was just "perfect storm" timing of emissions regulations, and electronic fuel injection needed to meet the emissions, that affected the power of that iteration of the motor pretty significantly. It was strangled relative to the carb version before it (more so than the specs would indicate). I drove a Mondial 8 (which had the same 3.0 EFI motor at the GTS/GTBi, plus a bit of additional weight versus the 308) and it really did feel underpowered. The carbed 3.0 before it was a much better performer, as are QV 3.0 and the 3.2 after it. In the Mondial, performance is"night and day" between the 8 and the QV, and then smaller steps of additional improvement with the 3.2 (same engine as 328). I don't think the carbed 3.0, or the QV or the 3.2 have anything to apologize for in terms of performance for the period, but I definitely "get" wanting more power in the GTSi. I have no experience with mods to that engine because I've never owned one, but it wouldn't seem difficult to get much more power out of the GTSi with better injection -- should be able to get at least to the carbed version's performance or better (although I don't know if there were compression ratio differences also, which could affect potential).

 

Google says a 2022 busa is 188hp and 582lbs. Google also says the average US male is 197.8lbs, so weight to power 4.1:1

My 308 with driver and fuel, as guess is 3400lb, the computer estimates the power at 856 so 4:1

Can you get more power from the bike with a turbo? Sure. Can I add a tube or 4? Sure. My point is it's fast, limit of traction spinning the tires to 80 or 100mph fast so adding more doesn't help below 100mph and I don't recall the last time I drove that fast so to me it has plenty already.

HP is a diminishing return game. The cost goes up exponentially while performance gain is a log decay kind of thing so you pay more and more while getting less and less benefit. On a straight road in 1st gear (normal 308 2nd gear, I changed ratios) I can only open the throttles about 1/2 way open or the tires spin. In 2nd (normal 308 3rd) maybe 70%throttle to spin, didn't try 3rd yet but it accelerates up to the speed limit and then some just as fast as the tires will allow. I can understand wanting more, I can understand thinking it's overkill but for me it's plenty good and I'll be thrilled if I ever get all the bugs sorted.

 

Adding HP beyond around 33% is an exercise in continuous money spending. Most cars can accept a 1/3rd increase in power with absolutely no issues at all. But much beyond that it usually looks like this:

1. Need bigger (fatter) tires to put the power down without going up in smoke... OOPS...
2. Need a stronger clutch to put the power down without burning up the clutch... OOPS...
3. Need stronger axles/differential to handle the increased power/grip to avoid destroying axles/gearbox...OOPS
4. Need suspension/related mods to handle the increased power/grip without ripping the drive gear from the chassis
(3# and #4 can reverse order depending on the car)
and the beat goes on....

OTOH, IF you increase the power but leave the stock tires, you can leave everything else alone but you have to deal with the wheel spin and moderate the throttle appropriately. IOW, the stock tires ensure that you don't damage the expensive parts.

 

Sound right but maybe switch 1 & 2. Stock size tires will spin in the low gear(s) but probably not in the higher gears putting all the load on the clutch...that was that 1st part I failed.

For a 308 3&4 don't come into play until about 1000hp from what I hear. I know for sure that despite my best attempts I was not able to break them at 600hp/420ftlbs and I know there is 1 person on this forum with around an 800hp turbo setup and I know there are a couple other out there I've hear of.

I think too that HOW you make the power matters a bit. Its torque that breaks stuff so it you make hp with cams and rpm you don't generally add much if any torque and little to no additional load other than maybe heat if you run at the higher rpm for extended periods. With boost or larger displacement though you are make hp by adding torque so more concern about breakage. So maybe 600ft-lbs as the (probably) safe point and above that you're in somewhat uncharted waters other than a conversation I had years ago about 308 and TR trans parts looking about the same and TRs being ok at 1000hp but blowing up 2nd gear at about 1200hp..so maybe 800ish ftlbs is maybe good?

 

Today I came up behind a C8, on the back side of PV , he dropped the throttle, I did the same on my 150 HP Monster. and sling shot passed him on the right in the bike lane and left him in the dust , then I came off it in 4th. I guess his power to weight was a little off today ! lol I can see this again against a 2023 ZO 6 when Im on the 208 HP 440 lb street fighter , with the same results . Bikes are faster than cars, slot cars are made for 1/32 fun , who cares about the street. Of course top end I would get smoked, but not through 4th gear on the Monster.

Big G

 

Not a good idea to post about street racing.


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"Not a good idea to post about street racing."

Right! To paraphrase Tuco, "If you're gonna street race, RACE, don't talk!" (and never go out with more than 1/4 tank of fuel)

 

It was a jaunt that lasted less than an 1/8 of a mile, then it was business as usual. Otherwise the car and bike factories should not build fast machines, when would you use all that power ? Just on the track ? I dont think so lol Its all in good fun, and nobody lost an eye lol

Big G

 

Fast forward to the circuit as the intro is painful. Roll on I think is race 4. I doubt even a pro drag racer would make up the deficit from the standing start but YMMV.





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The writing, as they say, is on the wall!