945kg. It’s one of the best driving cars I’ve ever had the pleasure of driving. It’s exactly what I always wished a 308/328 would be. It’s a full group 4 car with all the FIA papers so not really a standard street 308. The chassis was modified for the appendix K specs with the different sections of tubing and it has the full built in cage too. Here are a few other pics. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
This is the CIS controller setup I was thinking of https://dkubus.com/?product=frankencis-dpr-controller-module You keep the continuous injection, which is fine, but use electronic control so it can work with any cams and still look pretty stock
Well there was a dyno sheet somewhere that I saw once. I’ll have to dig through the files again. The car has a file folder is 5 inches thick. I’ll try to dig when I can. I don’t know what hp number that translates to at the wheels but driving the car, a close to 300hp number at crank seems about right.
Oh man, I am so jealous of that number, not jealous enough to spend the next few years chasing it but man that's light. I'd be thrilled with1300kg which I'm not sure I can hit
That sounds about right if they are removing or forcing the mass flow plate open. The 4V cars respond quite well to that change and with a freer flowing exhaust (aka louder) 25-30 is reasonable IMO. The 2V engines I don't think respond quite as well since they are so cam limited but a kit like this with a cam change and getting back 76/77 performance or better seems very realistic. It comes down to what's it worth? You can get a set of cams for $2k? something like that. Then maybe another $1500 to add the CIS controller stuff, then I don't know whats available for 308 exhausts these days, but the stock headers are decent so near muffler maybe $1000. that should put you in the 240-270 range depending. Add compression and flow work for another few $k and 250-300hp seems right or just drive it
Well, if it makes you feel better, I think the whole restoration of taking a stock 308 GTB to an FIA Gr. 4 car with all the event eligibility (and accompanying weight reduction and power increase) totaled over £275,000 based on my records. And the exchange rate wasn't what it was now. Make no mistake; it's a hell of a car. But as anyone whose worked with the likes of Kari Makela at MAT or Ian Gwynne at BGMsport would tell you, they don't leave any stones unturned and it's a real process. The whole chassis is redone. If you haven't already, go through one of the photo albums at Kari's site to get an idea of what they do. For years I wanted more out of my 328 GTB or my 308 GTB QV and then when I had my 348CH for a bunch of years, I was like, "man, I just want something light and racy that you can actually drive on twisty roads and on the street but is more that just the usual getting a few more hp out of a street car." And, well, this is it. It's not super good in traffic but it's really good on the road. It's very stiff but not too stiff, it doesn't overheat in traffic, and it's everything that I've always loved about the 308 without the things I don't love about the 308. I love historic tarmac rally cars.
That does help, still jealous though. That car is LIGHT. That weight means your acceleration wise your 300hp is 450-500hp to the rest of us in our more normal 3000-3400lb 308s so that has to be quite a car to drive. The cost to modify keeps coming up in this thread as it should I suppose but modified cars change hands all the time and well done work has value both in the driving experience and the market place. I try to pay attention to the limited number of V12 conversions and a few years back a fairish looking 400i conversion compete with the CIS, 2 of them , sold at basically stock price but last year a pretty nice looking but needing some love 365 conversion brought "mid 100s" was all I could get. A 6 carb 365 making maybe 350-400hp is a desirable engine and adds value, a stock 400i is maybe more trouble than is worth but did seem to hurt the value. That's kind of how it goes, quality and finish really matter...its got to come out of a PPI with the mechanic happy or it gets priced as an incomplete project car and its got to be modifications that have appeal beyond the current owner, better handling, less weight, and more hp are usually welcome.
All the best 308s have cams around [email protected]" and blue paint That just always seems to work out pretty good.
Youtube sent me this today, 308 with ITBs on the dyno, 321whp. not sure where they are getting the wheel to engine correction here but they are using 28% and saying 90hp loss? Image Unavailable, Please Login
The Dyno is doing a assumed calculated drag loss at spin down, from what I've read about that.. it's highly 'tweekable' and not very accurate.. But gives great numbers when you want them. Honestly I don't get the obsession with trying to get a bigger delta. It's a tuning tool, use it as such. A 28% loss would have me very concerned something is wrong in the drive train.
I've spent way too much time on the Dyno with engine builds. Unpopular view incoming.... It's damn hard to get into the 300hp range NA with the 308 series engines. Typically that power figure is reached at 8k+ rpm with very little tq off idle. 5-9k power band, loads of fun at the track, not so much for the neighbors. It's why bigger bore or increased stroke is utilized to try and get more bottom/mid range tq. The first 30-40hp is not to difficult to get, beyond that it gets really expensive fast. So anytime I hear claims of 100+ hp gains with minor changes like cams or increased CR... Yeah, I'm very skeptical. In my opinion the 348 is the best starting point engine design for getting more power. But that's a different animal entirely. There's also the fun of keeping these things fastened together at 8k+ rpm... Hardware check after every run to 9k.
What a fun sink! ...but there is truth in the statement that there is no replacement for displacement which is why pretty much every race class limits displacement. But an engine is an engine. A 3 liter engine made with good parts will make a very streetable 300hp (and north of 400 in race trim) The stuff I've seen/done over the years I'd say this. 1) Its way easier to get hp out of a QV than a 2V 2) Weber does not belong in the same sentence with the word "performance" unless the word "poor" is also present. They are state of the art for 1950. 3) 70s/80s ferrari port design is not very good 4) seat to seat cam duration is unhelpful and should be minimized Years ago a wise man told me "I don't care care if you're Jesus Christ himself, without air you aren't going to make hp" and that is exactly right. HP starts with well done heads which 308s do not have from the factory. You fix the heads, throw out the 70s (really 60s) cam designs and good things will happen but 300 is pretty hard with flow killing bits like CIS and webers...because without air you can't make hp. So you flow the head and intake setup and go from there to match it all up and it will run good. High flow heads with a crazy restrictive intake it will run bad. Making up for poor flow with more cam duration will run bad and the more poor choices the worse it runs, 2 wrongs don't make a right kind of thing. Most low end performance issues are poor mixture control and a distant second place goes to excessive seat to seat cam duration or its sister inadequate compression ratio for the chosen cam duration. Duration make it very sensitive to intake and exhaust tuning so duration issues normally show up more as peak and valleys in the torque curve Like the red QV dyno I posted above. I don't know.....300 from a 3 liter just doesn't seem hard other just about everyone I've ever tried to help has had at least 1 screwball design requirement that was non-negotiable and in no way helpful to achieving the performance goal
Yep. That’s pretty much my car. Not a ton of torque off idle (doesn’t idle great, either) but comes alive around 4500rpm and really revs. I don’t consider it a track only car, though. As i said earlier, it’s great on the road (lives for the winding mountain roads) but not super great in traffic. I think that it’s due to its being a bit rich down low, which I think is part of the Weber carbs. It’s not anything thats that bad and it’s not impossible to live with on the street, however, and it does suit the car’s character. If I want to drive like a gentleman, I’ll take the 512bbi. If I want to rip up the mountains, I’ll take this.
And VERY close to what I'm running too. Mines a little more lift and couple degree less duration but very close. I have a buddy who uses almost exactly this in hot street H-Ds and another just asked me to run a sim for him with almost this exact grind for a SBC. These number just always seem to work out.
Yup, lose the webers, lose the mixture problems There is likely also so mixture issues around 4500 where is crossing over from low to high speed jetting that and off idle are a nearly impossible to get right with decent cams. There will always be a curve about the torque curve kind of by definition but even with some mixture issues it should both pull to 8k and drive ok. I think your example though is a great one....it will drive slow but is meant to drive fast. It will likely loss a 60mph 5th gear roll-on to a stock engine but 60mph you pick the gear you want roll-on though would be a very different story. If you want it all then you need a v12 or is cousin a blower
that's the sweet spot in cam profile for these engines. there's a slightly different one that shifts the tq curve down if one is happy with not having to rev to 8k+... lets see: Intake: 306* @ 0.01" & 262* @ 0.04" __lift of .405"/10.3mm Exhaust 285* @ 0.01" & 249* @ 0.04"__ lift of .403"/10.2mm that's for 2V, it doesn't work as well for the QV as other profiles.
yup.. the 2V head is poopy garbage... there i said it. the QV is sooooo much better, and the next jump that really works is the 348... and yes they bolt right to the QV/328 block. just need the casting bosses drilled for the front cover studs. and they're also getting expensive and difficult to source.... so there's that. but the change in valve angle is enough to get away from the seats hanging out in the quench land with the scary 'clipping' that's needed for upsized valves.
Well, I could go with a kugelfischer set up that keeps the car’s FIA paperwork intact and corresponding event eligibility. But that’s not cheap…
I get yours is a special case because rules are rules. I meant for general hotrodding it seems like most of the issues I read about people having are related mixture.
I didn't realize the angles were different on the 348. I put 31.25mm intakes in a couple sets of QV heads on the stock seats which works pretty well. 32 with a slighly oversize seat but at 32 there is a small drop in velocity as the flow from the 2 valves starts the interfere with each other a bit but not too bad. I use a kind of radius seat profile the likes the valves to sit a little deeper so the seat ends up completely covered. Then I use the 348 gasket as a template to open up the intake flange that is too small on the qv heads. 15-20% gain is pretty easy, 30% possible....well, 60% is possible when there are no rules like don't grind into the water jackets.
Its the sweet spot on most engines. I like to plan on about that cam then match the head flow to it...so id put 12% more flow in a 3.4 then a 3 but but would have the same peak rpm. I don't like the .01 duration to go much over 280 -285 on a street engine, more trouble than it's worth to get the low end good.
