Upgrade or Stock? | Page 6 | FerrariChat

Upgrade or Stock?

Discussion in '308/328' started by dave80gtsi, Jan 14, 2023.

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  1. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I guess it just kills me when I work on hard on the flow then the carb takes 10-15%, which is what you need to plan on to have decent low end mixture control. That means the velocity it down 10-15% so it can't tolerate as much cam and there's more hp loss. So [email protected]" and 250@ .050" duration is nice with efi, it's on the hot side limit for carbs usually, depending a bit on the heads.
     
  2. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Going completely off memory but I seem to recall that the 348 heads flow at stock what the QV heads flow after aggressive porting and tweaking. Ported 348 heads on 89mm bore, 360 crank... 600+ hp, 700 if you're willing to rev beyond 10k.. but that's with serious overkill valve train work.
     
  3. sherpa23

    sherpa23 F1 Veteran
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    Both good points. Besides, it’s not hard to live with some down low richness on a car like this. It’s not like if it’s something I use to putter around town to go to Home Depot.
     
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  4. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Sounds rightish. Ferrari follows a formula with valves ports and flow. 348 is 30mm intake? So 30mm in a qv head will come out similar I guess. But 31 or 32 in a qv should beat a stock 348.

    What size intakes do you get in the 348 head?

    In the TR head which is quite similar I got 34/28...34/29 would go and is what I should have done, exhaust came out a little low. This is to feed a 458cc cylinder. And after all the work figuring that out i found out that exactly what ferrari did on the 456/550 ....doh! The 34 require increasing the valve to valve spacing 2mm, 33 was it otherwise.
     
  5. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Those are excellent numbers, I didn't realize you were getting that much out of them.
     
  6. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    From memory I think the 348 is 30.5/27.5, they had weird half mm dia as I recall.

    Didn't go up very large, just 1.5mm over, however I did get the stem down to 5mm from 7mm, custom guides and seats out of a cuprate. Single beehive springs... Ti all over the place. There's an easy $20k wrapped up in the heads alone. It was kinda surprising how much the stem gets in the way along with the stock guide sitting there like a boulder in the road.

    Getting the power we did really came down to the giant ITB's and lack of manifold. Tuning the runner length was key as well, unfortunately 6" velocity stacks don't exactly fit under the bonnet of a 308:eek:.

    It's a show car...
     
  7. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    They sound very similar to mine. You have smaller intakes but larger exhaust, 5mm stems,....52mm TBs you said to my 54 so all close. Great minds think alike ;)

    DM6 insists mine wants short stacks...10.25" tops to valve and I'm only tuned for 9k. DM5 wanted 15" total, but DM6 says shorter is better, and shorter smooths out the torque curve a bit
     
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  8. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

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    "It’s not like if it’s something I use to putter around town to go to Home Depot."

    Funny! That's EXACTLY what I did with my 328 for 8 years. It was my daily driver and spent plenty of time in bumper/bumper traffic so I was extremely pleased with how easily the 328 puttered around as far as throttle response at low RPM. It was a fixture at the local grocery and hardware stores. I got a lot of comments at the stores, including "I never saw Magnum do that!" when I was loading several 8ft 2x4s into it at Home Depot! I was (am) amazed at the 328s ability to pull from low RPM in a high gear with no complaint.

    "There's an easy $20k wrapped up in the heads alone."

    That's a reason I consider forced induction as the only cost-effective way to get substantial increased power from these engines. As has been pointed out on this thread, it's not that you can't get it doing "normal" engine mods (cams/pistons/fueling/etc), just that the price is way above my acceptable range.
     
  9. dwhite

    dwhite F1 Rookie

    #134 dwhite, Jan 27, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2023
    I believe the 78 & 79 carbed motorss were not 240hp like the 77 and earlier motors. The cams were changed for emissions. Then they went to FI to comply with emmissions, still low power. The QV helped, but my 83 has a whole idiotic high idle to comply with emmissin, get the cat hot quickly.

    Regardless, when I got my 308 I thought about more power and spoke with Ted Wenz about it. He built a motor which went in my TVR. Problem is you really need to address the entire package, bottom and top ends, so it gets nutty on a car which cost me 35K in 2001. Would have been north of 10K.

    I remember back when the snickering went on against the first injected cars, but a buddy had an 81 GTB and it went just fine, especially when we were on some twisty back roads.

    Today, I honestly don't think it matters. Unless you are looking to build a monster as Sherpa did with his Group 4 car. That car is special, but it's not a 308 someone can buy unless you find a Michelotto.

    I'm moving mine on to someone probably this spring.
     
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  10. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

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    The heck with all this high-dollar stuff! For under 200 bucks you can supercharge your Ferrari!

    http://www.superchargertuning.com/Ferrari/328/

    I wonder if they have any bridges for sale? I've been trying to find a good deal on the Brooklyn or the Golden Gate!

    Ain't the internet wonderful?
     
  11. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    Simon on this very forum made one and it's amazing. But yes it's absurdly pricey and not worth it unless you really just want that setup! Like MFI 911 engines, they are very neat but a mega pain to set up and in the end PMO carbs will do just as well.

    I have to wonder what other voodoo they did to crack nearly 300bhp. Those cams combined with higher compression usually make around 270-280bhp when stuff is otherwise stock. They must know something about porting these heads that unlocks the magic.
     
  12. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    First you have to be careful with Scott, if there is a custom parts way to do the job he'll find it :p

    But rebuilding 32 valve worth of heads is expensive as is rebuilding the rest of the engine. At rebuild time adjusting compression ratio is free. Bigger valves with better springs are free. Most people don't need to have the cams touch for a rebuild so better cams adds $2k. Flow work adds another $2k-$5k. Convert CIS to EFI adds say $2k unless you also want ITBs then say $3k more. So $10k on top of an already expensive rebuild and you get a pretty hot engine. Do it outside of a rebuild and its $20-$30k. and non of this will help low end power...it shouldn't hurt to much but it certainly won't help unless you also increase displacement, another $5k-$10k depending what you do.

    For low end its up displacement or add a roots or screw type blower, which is not the 928 kit, that kit is a centrifugal compressor which doesn't do a lot down low, its more like a turbo. This is a QV with a vortech V1...there might be a better option out ther but you get the idea,

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    This wasn't too hard to build, its an eaton mp90 but today there are better options. The manifold bolts on and fit under the hood. This is where you need to be careful with me, if there is a way to weld something I will find that.

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    and gives about this before after on a QV, more torque everywhere, I had 301 rwhp. There is a reason all the OEM superchargers are positive displacement like this. Something like that is maybe $5k in parts and another $5k in labor to build.
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  13. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I've posted this before but a blower really changes the way the engine feels.

    Just driving around town stock I shifted around 4500 most of the time. Blower 1 that dropped to maybe 3500 and blower 2 it dropped to like 2500. Blower 1 I didn't really notice at first, I remember describing it as just better in everyway (other than the blower whine). Blower 2 is when I noticed how low of rpm I'd started using and that it really felt like a big block corvette engine. It would sort of shake and GO! but then get a lot more 308ish above 4 or 5k where the BB would have died but this just kept pulling and feeling smoother. A positive displacement blower makes the engine act bigger and that was very noticeable in the in town diving experience.

    Part of what I was trying to do with the V12 was keep the top end but lose a bit of bottom end to make it more sports cary feeling then the blower 2 setup. I'm not sure I succeed as the bottom end came out quite strong but the shake and go feeling is gone which is what I was feely after., its a smooth yet loud and explosive go now :eek:

    You mess wit the engine you change the way the car feels.
     
  14. Brian Harper

    Brian Harper F1 Rookie
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    I'd noticed that.
     
  15. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    well.... yeah!

    I bugged the guys at dynomation a number of yrs back (decade...sheesh time flys!) and got them the needed maps etc.. so they added in the Rotrex blower option. Looks like they've kept it up to date and added the newer ones. If you play with those they are much like a turbo... heck they spin nearly as fast. here's a quick compare on a stock QV, nothing but the blower added, though I would not recommend running it without an intercooler at 15psi. Point is to show that it does pick up a small bit on the low/mid range. downside.. very expensive head units!
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  16. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    The rotrex stuff is definitely better than the older vortech.

    This kind of goes to what I was on about way at the start of the thread....a lot of design choices get made for a lot of reason and the whole point of custom is to make the choices to work well for the way a specific person wants the car to drive or sound or whatever.

    Can you sent me your QV model? It looks better than mine. My stuff is all still DM5 and the torque is too high and too early when I pull it over. I was seeing strange stuff on the boost curve plot for the couple I posted too that did not match what I'm remembering my data logs saying up top in particular.
     
  17. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Forgot - I just frikin love what can be done with engine models now. 20 years ago everything was a guess based on what a buddy's buddy told you about a car they saw once. Now we can just plug the parts into the sim and be done with the nonsense and voodoo. It saves so much time and disappointment....I would say it saves cost too by not suggesting you buy wrong parts, but it also adds cost by showing what a full set of matching parts will do vs just swapping out the 1 thing you were thinking so a double edge sword in that regard.

    I just love it though.....best $500 I ever spent.
     
  18. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Sent you the file, hopefully it works.
    Yeah, noticed all kinds of weird things when importing to 6. In most instances it was just easier to start over fresh. Pita I know but there seems to be a bigger jump in their program when they went to 6.
     
  19. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Add in pipemax and cam analyzer and that's 99% of what anyone would ever need for model testing a build. Of course provided the input is accurate.
     
  20. mike996

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    Of course, the real test is on the track! Even a dyno can produce "wrong" power numbers because the dynamics of moving down the road/airflow into the intake system is different than a dyno pull.
     
  21. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I have pipe max, but honestly used it so litte I never got the key updated 2 computers ago. DM6 gives you a best guess header starting point which was all I really used PM for but if the plan is build headers not design and engine then, yeah it is helpful. PM did help me realize what Burns Stainless did when they designed my headers...ahh the 2nd pulse! kind of thing.

    Never messed with cam design beyond picking and available lobe master.
     
  22. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #147 mk e, Jan 28, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2023
    Yeah, especially for tuning.

    It's nice to have the basics sorted though and not build stuff that could just never deliver what you're after. Everybody loves a race car's peak hp number but it's nice to see what else you'd be living with., like do you really want 30%less power than you have now at the rpm you use the most? That kind of thing shows right up in the software.
     
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  23. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Thanks, opened fine.
     
  24. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    It's 3:08.

    Always get excited when I look at the clock ar just the right moment.
     
  25. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Here is a QV with a whipple 100ax which is a 1.6 liter screw type supercharger factory power curve just more everywhere. This setup seems just about perfect peaking at 12psi which should be fine with no intercooler. $2600 for the blower itself, probably $3k with a drive then it needs an intake manifold and ECU and such so all in this would be about a $10k kit I'd guess. I'd also guess you'll probably need a clutch upgrade ;)

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