Okay, new thread, cause I saw the posts on the limitations of FRS.... I have been thinking about this for several months...and have even brought this up with the local FCA board. The current thought is that anything we do should be "backwards compatible" with those that still have FRS radios. The new GMRS radios looks to be the solution. Depending on the type/cost, they can have (claimed) ranges of up to 8 miles! Now let's figure in reality it is half that....still a huge improvement, don't you think? The cheapest GMRS radios have a range (claimed) of 2 miles, the best 8 miles. So what's the difference? Power output. The best can punch out up to 5 watts, where as FRS is limited to .5 watt. Here's the compatiblity issue....GMRS radios will operate their higher power on FRS channels 1-7, so we will need to select a new channel between 1 and 7. Then pick a new interference filter, or keep it as 12, like before. I was thinking 6/12 as in the Dino 246 or as Gary Reed thought, the new 612 Scagiletti. Anyway, there are many radio choices out there. Motorola Model T7200 looks interesting, but there are others too. I saw one today at Target that had a "power boost" button that allows the 8 mile range! Here's the thing to consider...high power eats batteries, and requires high current capability. This pretty much means you must use Nicad or Nimhi battery packs...disposable alkaline AA's just don't have the storage capacity or power capability. So all these radios require recharger units for the special battery packs (like your cell phone), that generally must plug into the wall...though cig adapters may be available. Also, the higher power radios generally have larger batteries and larger size radios, so they are a bit bigger. All in all, I think the move to GMRS is the way to go. You can get a nice two pack of Motorola GMRS radios with a claimed 5 mile range, a charging stand, two headsets, rechargeable battery packs, and the ability to use AA alkalines if the rechargeable batteries go dead. All for $40!http://snipurl.com/6bi0 Now for me, I will probably spend a bit more, like $80 or $90 for a pair of even higher power Motorola or Kenwood or whatever radios that can hit that magic 7 or 8 mile range. The two key features is transmit power (in watts) and battery capacity (in milliamp hours). http://snipurl.com/6gsi The only downside, is those that have the old FRS radios may not be heard around the next turn.... Anyway, I'm still learning about GMRS technology, so please feel free to chime in. Some radios have NOAA weather radio frequencies, GPS units that allow you to transmit your location to other users, and other neat functions. Let's check out the available options, then we can all try and get similar radios. Dave
I'm game. I find the FSR's work great if I'm sitting in traffic behind someone but at speed on the freeway or around the bend the sound quality goes away. I CAN hear something but very hard to understand. Very frustrating! I would be happy to move up to the GMRS especially if I can plug it in to the cigarette lighter while driving. That way I am sure the batteries would last a reasonable amount of time. Communication on these drives is what really makes them work well. Very rare have I seen anybody get lost while using a radio. I was under the impression after discussing GMRS radios previously that they only transmitted in the 5 watt range above channel 38 making communication with the FRS radios impossible and then transmitting in the 1watt range from channel 38 down making ownership of the GMRS a moot point. Time to ask more questions. DJ
Dana, I just downloaded an owner's manual from the Motorola website (http://commerce.motorola.com/consumer/QWhtml/manual.html). According to the channel chart for the T7200 model GMRS radio, that unit will transmit it's full -2 watts- of power on FRS Channels 1-7. On FRS channels 8-14 it will only transmit at 1/2 watt. So- we would need to use channels 1-7, as Dave has discussed already, to get the benefits of the higher power/distance range and still be able to talk to the people who only have FRS radios.
So let me get this straight, 1. The T7200 GMRS Moto only transmits a total of 2 watts, not 5. 2. Is 2 watts the norm for GMRS? I think switching to 6/12 is a good move. I am ready to buy some radios that WORK! I am open to model suggestions, maybe a group buy/club discount? I am still hot on the idea for a radio that 'plugs in'. Thanks for checking things out guys. DJ
DJ, 5 watts is the maximum legally permissable output for GMRS, whereas the maximum for FRS is .5 watt. 2 watts seems to be the norm for hand held walkie talkies, but there are widely disparate claims on distance from 2 to 8 miles, so there are obvious differences in output. So that's why I am recommending that we all do some investigating, and figure out some units that appear to have the best specifications; not just the highest "miles" claims. Three things needed for long range: 1) High output (watts) 2) High capacity battery (milliamps) 3) Good antenna. Those short little "rubber ducky" antennas are practical, but not the best for transmission. Better, is a less convenient extendable/retractable antenna....and better still, is an external magnetic mount or window mount antenna. Obviously, neither of these may be practical for us, and we will have to compromise on the antenna issue. PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM NOT RECOMMENDING ANY SPECIFIC MODEL OR BRAND YET. THE ONES LISTED WERE JUST EXAMPLES. I FEEL WE NEED TO INVESTIGATE THIS MORE, BEFORE COMMITTING OUR FUNDS TO NEW RADIOS. I WANT TO MAKE SURE WE ARE ALL MAKING THE BEST DECISION ON THS BEFORE MOVING FORWARD..... Dave
You guys should read the travel report on GMRS radios at http://www.thetravelinsider.info/2003/0815.htm. It tests and rates both consumer FRS/GMRS products with professional grade products. The prognosis is pretty discouraging - net, most FRS radios can be better than GMRS and is testimonial to the product design. I can attest to this as my older Motorola FRS radio receives better clarity than the newer GMRS T5710 that I have.
Albert, Excellent article! This is the valuable information we need. I have been getting most of my (dated) information from my Dad and brother who are both "Extra Class" (highest license) ham radio operators. As stated in the article, the prime attributes are similar to what I quoted, though they also mention reciever quality (good point, you get what you pay for). I believe they are incorrect on the voltage effecting transmission...(that it is directly related to voltage). Nicads and Nimhi work best in digital cameras (compared to alkalines) because they are able to allow the cameras to take in "big gulps" of voltage, that alkaline batteries cannot. That is why your digital camera will recycle faster with nicads over alkalines..similar phenomenon with radios...and why nicads can be superior to alkalines for that application too.Transmitting takes similar "big gulps" of energy.... My brother gave me a demonstration some years ago of the difference in transmit and receive quality between the short "rubber ducky" antenna and a telescoping antenna on his 2 meter FM "ham radio" walkie talkie. The difference was amazing...but not practical to have a 30" antenna (they are also pretty fragile). Same with a magnetic or window mount antenna...it needs to be pretty tall to be effective...and both options are unattractive and inconvenient to use. Bottom line we are back to the same basics: Transmit power Battery power Antenna radio quality (basically you get what you pay for....) So the $40 per pair GMRS Motorola radios at Costco, are probably not any better than what we are using today...so where does that leave us? The problem is how do we find out which work the best, and are the best value? I would happily pay $100 (or even $200) for a radio with vastly superior range/reception and voice quality. The big issue is we really don't want to switch to some "business class" radio or something that requires an expensive license and costs hundreds of dollars....we need something that our general membership would find "reasonable" in cost...and for those that stick with FRS, can continue to use them (the compatibility issue). Though they may be able to hear us with our fancy radios....we may not be able to hear them. Maybe a couple of us will need to be "guinea pigs" and buy a couple of the higher power, higher quality Motorola or Kenwood units... Keep the links coming guys!
Regarding handheld radios (GMRS, FRS, or otherwise): Battery life: The higher the output power of the radio, the shorter the battery life. No way to get around this, other than to use a bigger battery. Look at the mAh (milliampere/hour) rating on the battery. Big = good. A 1600 mAh rating on a battery means that you can draw 1.6 Amps for one hour before the battery is discharged. The radio may only draw 1 amp on transmit, and you probably aren't transmitting all the time. You do the math on that one. Battery type: Use whatever the radio came with. Good old AA alk's are actually quite good, and would probably serve you well for a few days at an event. NiMH and NiCd are only used for recharging (NiMH > NiCd when possible). Lithiums in place of alk's is ok, but I can't promise increased life in a tranceiver. Forget about voltage, the radio is designed to operate with the battery supplying between X and X voltage, more won't help. Output Power: Trasmitter output power for handhelds is sort of like rated output power for automotive audio amps: lots of fudging, but the real numbers are there if you look. Remember that your battery is being depleted the whole time the radio is on. When the battery voltage starts to drop, the output power drops. NiCd's ramp off voltage more slowly than NiMH's, meaning that the NiMH will allow the radio to operate at full or close to full power for longer before dropping, while the NiCd is more of a gradual drop. Again, NiMH is better. Antennas: Bigger does not necessarily equal better. To be honest, those "rubber duckie" antennas so common on handheld radios are usually trash. If you can upgrade the antenna, do so. Most straight FRS radios do not have detachable antennas, but a lot of GMRS radios do. The manufacturer may sell an upgraded antenna, or you can try www.wavehunter.com Range: Range prediction is voodoo science without knowing the factors that need to be considered. Just get the maximum output power and the best antenna you can. In general, at GMRS frequencies, radio waves do not like foliage, hills, trees, etc. Concrete is also bad, but not nearly as bad as steel. The ultimate solution? Get everyone a ham license, set up a portable digipeater in the lead car, and enjoy. Sure, you have to pass the test, but IMO it's worth it to have the best equipment (and we do). My record distance contact on a 5-Watt Kenwood ham radio HT is St. Louis to Sydney, Australia. 100% true, but of course there's some information I may be leaving out. Chris - KB9SDX
I like that idea too....I have all the study guides and videos for taking the "Technician" ham radio license for 2 meters. We just need to maintain the compatibility issues, and realize that the great majority of our membership is not going to eat up a weekend studying for the test, nor wish to spend several hundred dollars on a Kenwood or Icom radio. (realistically, we probably have a "core" group of 10 or 12 people who would do this...that leaves a LOT of people out. I still believe we need to do our homework and figure out the "best of the worst" amongst the GMRS radios, and get them to work for us. "commercial quality" units sounds worth investigating due to the option of upgradeable/external antennas and various battery options (larger nicad packs, etc.). Also, Motorola, Kenwood and others all make "upper end" or higher quality units that sell for more than the more "consumer" oriented units...those should be investigated as well. Regards, Dave
Here's an idea. Give Icom a call since they are local and ask them what they would recomend. The ask if it would be posible to demo a pair of their radios for a drive. They might be willing to do this if it led to 8-12 units being sold. Just a thought.
Another GREAT idea! I just called and left a message with the zone sales rep for our area...will let you guys know what he says. Maybe if I name drop my brother it will help....he's pretty well known amongst the ham radio nerds, I mean "crowd"....
Dave, Another "name" you might want to drop on that salesman is, "NW Ferrari Club" and "241 members" (who are all dying to spend money in his store)
I've got an ICOM IC-T2H, but it's been unopened for a year. Still threatening to get my Technician license, but haven't studied the book.
Okay, guilty as well....I have a Kenwood TH-G71A along with all those study books and videos.....maybe we ought to study up one weekend? My brother can actually administer the test to us, I believe. BTW, I found some hacks that let 2 meter rigs transmit on FRS channels like a GMRS radio does at 5 watts...Hmmmm. To be legal, we'd need to get the GMRS license, and restrict ourselves to channels 1-7. No provisions for the 38 filters though...
I have a G71A too, great radio. Most ham radio handhelds have built-in CTCSS ("quiet codes") that are 100% compatable with FRS. Most features (including the codes) should still work on a modified radio.
Just curious: Does the old CB radio system still exist? Down around 27MHz, I think. If so, wouldn't this be an alternative? (Haven't used it in decades......)
Yeah, it still exists. I'm sure you wouldn't want to install a moblie in a Ferrari though, so we'll talk about handhelds. CB handhelds have come a long way in recent years, but I don't think this is the alternative you're looking for. CB's have 4 watts and 40 channels, no interference codes. This doesn't sound so bad, but honestly I think you'd be better off with an FRS radio. Two problems: Antenna: Any antenna on a given handheld radio (any band) is a compromise. What that means is that they aren't generally cut to the ideal length and the ground plane isn't that great. It results in a useable radio, just not an ideal one. At FRS frequencies, one complete wavelength antenna would be roughly 65-70cm long. Not too bad. At 27MHz (CB territory), one complete wavelength antenna would be 11 meters long! Now you see why CB handheld antennas suck. Battery life: Traditionally, batter life for CB handhelds just plain stinks. I'm still not sure why that is (other than maybe the amplification circuitry is horribly inefficient), but take my word for it. On the other hand, the new handhelds are cheap and well built, and of course you don't need a license.
Okay, some updates: 1) The local Icom rep and I are going to link up next week (June 2nd) and he will loan me a couple radios. If anyone is interested in helping, we can drive around and do some tests under various conditions...hills, wooded, urban. 2) My buddy and I did a "hack" on our 2 meter Kenwood ham radios (handhelds) and can now work the FRS/GMRS frequencies at 5 watts transmission. We still need to stay within the authorized GMRS frequencies to use the 5 watts, but it does seem to work much better (the Icom units should work similarly). From the top of Magnolia, we could converse almost to Northgate....so about 3 miles. I live in the middle of Magnolia hill, in a depression or valley, yet I could talk to my buddy down in Interbay, near the Ballard bridge. Impossible with an FRS radio. Basically transmitting up, over and back down a hill...about 3/4 mile in distance.
