Uprated Mondial ignition for Dummies

Most of the discussion was on the first FerrariChat board (still available to search).

It requires:
a $275 Mallory Unilite distributor for a Flathead Ford V-8, with rotation reversed ($25 extra). I got mine from Century Performance and they arranged the rotation change.
Adaptor plate and drive dog to put in the cam end - mine was about $500 from Norwood several years ago
MSD box of choice.

This set up is bone simple, has been bulletproof reliable, starts every time, and easy to set. Not as technically sexy as an Electromotive, but a lot less complicated and is reliable, and looks great (to me).

It works for me.
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looks good Russ.
one thing most don't know is that cam driven igntions still have a disadvantage to crank driven ones. the cam driven ignition sequence is susceptible to spark scatter, as the timing belt tends to stretch under load and acceleration, the timing will retard a bit due to this.

now for 99% of street vehicles this is a non-issue but for the few track junkies or mod monkeys I'd go with a crank signal every time.

 

Yes - I absolutely agree. As mine is a street car that 1% or 2-3 hp that the crank signal gives you wasn't worth the complexity or cost. My goal was a simple to install, DIY maintain and killer reliable ignition. I will say that the Unilite/MSD is definitely more bang for the buck, though if you are going for a reliability based upgrade... not to mention the billet distributor just looks so very much cooler...

 

What follows is based on my experience, what I have read and seen on dynos:

It will give the most accurate spark, as accurate as the Marelli unit; "work better" is really shades of gray and depends what you are after. I think the best way to accurately portray this ignition is : it will give the most accurate spark for a designated curve reliably over time. It is very good at what it is designed to do.

This is total crap unless your ignition system was total crap to begin with. Twelve to eighteen hp is a lot of ponies. ESPECIALLY replacing the Marelli - while unreliable, the Marelli accuracy and curves cannot be signifigantly improved upon - again, we are talking slight amounts - only single digit hp changes at best unless the system was dorked to begin with.

The MSD issue also has a lot of pros and cons. The Electromotive cannot work with an MSD, and the Electromotive is not set up to give the multiple fires at low rpm. I personally like the MSD for starting among a few other reasons - and notice you see MSDs on almost every racing car here in America and Norwoods loves it for the old Ferrari V-12s.

If anyone is really interested, sit down with the Marelli Digi-/Micro- plex ignition curves. UNDER LOAD producing max hp at full MAP (have to figure out that the curves are labeled in delta P, so be careful) the max advance is around 34 degrees for maximum flame front efficiency in a 4 valve head (two valve heads require much higher advance due to less efficient combustion chamber design), with the advance all in by just above 3000 or so and holding all the way to red line. Ergo, for MAX power operation, whatever system you have, if it is delivering about 34 degrees from above 3000 rpm or so, you're getting full advantage of the ignition assuming a good hot spark.

My point: As I said, the Electromotive unit will give the most accurate reliable spark - but will not buy you 18 hp in an otherwise normal engine. In Ferrari V-8 engines - much like the mixture - there is a tolerance area where not much change really occurs as long as you are close in a certain range. For MAX power applications, my ancient technology unilite fired MSD will not be signifigantly or noticibly different than the Electromotive. However, the electromotive will be more tunable in the other ranges, especially if you use a vacuum signal, to deliver better fuel economy with a vacuum advance.

Again, I think the Electromotive unit is good, but not a panacea as many claim.

Just my experience - I may be wrong.

 

The MSD 6 is a basic, Multipal spark, magnetically fired CD unit. The MSD6AL adds the capability of choosing at which rpm, (via plug in chips), that the rev limiting ocurrs.

hth,
chris

 

Check http://www.superformance.co.uk/a-308/ignition.htm

I've got one of these kits. While others claim easy installation, mine took quite some time due to a misalignment between the cap and the daisy wheel. Once solved, it runs great.

Plus it retains the stock look, if that's of importance to you.

Hans

 

I meant to say the BSM kit at the bottom of the page

 

Now would be the time to ask Norwoods as they have my heads off for porting and new valves and the whole adaptor unit sitting on a shelf in their shop to copy...

 

I think if you have a support facility there locally and they have a product they support, that would be the best bet for you. It even sounds quite simple. Even in a globalized economy, it's nice having help around the corner. As far as emissions and all, remember that you can set ANY curve in the ignition you want - US or Euro.

If the price is right, would go with the Manchester guys and let everyone else here know of the option - maybe they come in M. United colors as well.
(ducking for cover)

 

Russ,where can one find that advance curve data/map? I've not seen it posted... if you've got it, would you post it here?

 

Don't know... specifically want the QV one, which I thought maxed out at an advance of 34... it would be nice if we had it as a data spreadsheet rather than speghetti curve chart.

 

the problem is is that is a 3d chart being shown in a 2d graph. the 'spaghetti' is the vacuum advance/retard effect.

 

Yes, these are for different manifold air pressures, shown as a delta P from ambient (that is how the Marelli senses it rather than absolute values). This is one of my older graphs with my dyno tested curvesthat I use for a qv superimposed over the US advance curves. I'll look tonight to see if I have a cleaned up version - I may even have some sample Ferrari Electromotive curves in my vast plagerized archives.

 

These are the US Microplex advance curves showing a full load advance of 32.5 or so degrees; I believe the Euros go to 34 degrees, and that is what I found best on dyno-ing my 3.2 qv. The advance curves are roughly divided into two groups, the high power and low power settings as idicated by the pressure difference from ambient. I've taken the liberty of putting a red line through the higher power settings (smaller delta Ps). I think you should be most interested in curves 2, 3 & 4 (curve one is a default failure mode I think) to give you an illustration. What this graph says to me is that the qv combustion chamber is very efficient and does not need much advance under load. When off throttle where there is less chance of danger, the ignition advances for better economy and emissions.

I'll see if I can find a Euro or aftermarket curve.

hope this is a good reference for folks.
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Good reference threads for Electromotive units, MSDs and curves in general from the old board, and even see some of the old tech section major dramatic episode (will be familiar to a few here - kinda fun actually, we were all so young...).

http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/256120/210875.html

http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/256120/90515.html

http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/112/328701.html?1066997312

http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/256120/2964.html

 

I noticed in the last thread listed that Paul Sloan set his 308QV advance to
20 degrees @ 1000
36 degrees @ 3000
40 degrees @ 8000