US GP in Austin Discussion and Speculation...

SRT Mike · Nov 25, 2011

Simon^2 said: ↑

Tavo has said they are behind schedule for 2012,... Epstein halts construction but postures as if he's negotiating with BE for a 2012 race. 51 weeks to go...

None of this make sense at face value,... it still seems most likely to me that Epstein is trying to work an exit strategy where he can blame others.
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I thought it was amusing that COTA put out a news blurb saying "we understand Bernie would like to move the race to 2013, we're Ok with that" as if it was Bernie's idea.

When does the deadline that Bernie gave to COTA run out? Was it today?

It's obvious even to those who were in staunch denial that the track was never going to be done for 2012, not for summer and not for November. And since they didn't have the money, it's going to be even more difficult for them to raise it for next year.

Some people have said "they've already spent $100MM - no way are they going to just bail on this now". That's like saying "the penny stock I bought has dropped 50%, no way am I gonna sell it now". If I was an investor and was committed to $400MM, I'd damn well want to protect my remaining $300MM rather than pour it down the same black hole that I poured the first $100MM down.

Simon^2 · Nov 26, 2011

SRT Mike said: ↑

I thought it was amusing that COTA put out a news blurb saying "we understand Bernie would like to move the race to 2013, we're Ok with that" as if it was Bernie's idea.

When does the deadline that Bernie gave to COTA run out? Was it today?

It's obvious even to those who were in staunch denial that the track was never going to be done for 2012, not for summer and not for November. And since they didn't have the money, it's going to be even more difficult for them to raise it for next year.

Some people have said "they've already spent $100MM - no way are they going to just bail on this now". That's like saying "the penny stock I bought has dropped 50%, no way am I gonna sell it now". If I was an investor and was committed to $400MM, I'd damn well want to protect my remaining $300MM rather than pour it down the same black hole that I poured the first $100MM down.
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Deadline was Friday 11/25,... BE extended to Wed, 11/30.

http://espn.go.com/racing/f1/story/_/id/7278433/formula-one-bernie-ecclestone-reiterates-deadline-doubts-austin-race

brian.s · Nov 26, 2011

SRT Mike said: ↑

I thought it was amusing that COTA put out a news blurb saying "we understand Bernie would like to move the race to 2013, we're Ok with that" as if it was Bernie's idea.

When does the deadline that Bernie gave to COTA run out? Was it today?

It's obvious even to those who were in staunch denial that the track was never going to be done for 2012, not for summer and not for November. And since they didn't have the money, it's going to be even more difficult for them to raise it for next year.

Some people have said "they've already spent $100MM - no way are they going to just bail on this now". That's like saying "the penny stock I bought has dropped 50%, no way am I gonna sell it now". If I was an investor and was committed to $400MM, I'd damn well want to protect my remaining $300MM rather than pour it down the same black hole that I poured the first $100MM down.
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Precisely! And please let's not hear about the other money events scheduled, does anyone really think that even over 10 years there could be any ROI from those events? No, the ROI comes from the inevitable tract housing surrounding the USF1 Toaster factory employing all those South American "fans".

Simon^2 · Nov 26, 2011

This is 24 Kt gold.

I love the part about Bernie signing COTA's contract with hefty non-performance penalties for entertainment value.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20111126/FREE/111129948

www.autoweek.com said:

U.S. Grand Prix: The ball is in Ecclestone's court

It has been difficult to explain to non-Formula One fans, or even knowledgeable insiders, what's going on with the 2012 United States Grand Prix, scheduled for just over a year from now at the Circuit of the Americas road course presently under construction in Austin, Texas.

Explaining the situation just became even more difficult.

As most of us in the U.S. were sitting down to Thanksgiving dinner, our iPhones and Blackberries lit up with the latest offer from COTA management, at this point inarguably led by Texas financier Bobby Epstein, with the much-better-known Red McCombs following at a safe distance.

Essentially a Hail-Mary pass to save the 2012 F1 race, the offer has Epstein essentially calling out Formula One chief Bernie Ecclestone, the diminutive 81-year-old British billionaire who controls what tracks and what countries are allowed to host F1 races; when they get them, and how much they will pay for them.

In a meeting several weeks earlier between Ecclestone, Epstein, project president Steve Sexton and project founder Tavo Hellmund at Ecclestone's office, which was first reported by Autoweek, we told you that Ecclestone had provided the group a new contract, since the original contract--issued to Hellmund and his company, Full Throttle Productionsm months earlier--was now invalid because the required fee had not been paid.

Epstein now wanted a new contract, made out to him and his company, because apparently for some reason, he suddenly found having the race contracted to Hellmund's company untenable. Why? No one has said. Was Epstein afraid that Hellmund could move the race to some Texas site other than COTA (he couldn't)? Or was Epstein worried that if the contract wasn't with his own company, he couldn't use it as essentially collateral in an attempt to interest more investors?

By dragging their feet, Epstein and McCombs have caused two problems. Problem one: They've frightened off the Texas politicians such as comptroller Susan Combs and even Gov. Rick Perry, who saw intangible value in bringing a truly premium international racing series to Austin, backed by profoundly tangible value in the money spent by the fans--a large percentage of which would come from outside the U.S. in general, Texas in particular. Combs was ready to use a discretionary fund at her disposal that is expressly designed to help bring major annual events to Texas, such as the Super Bowl. She was ready to give Hellmund, who would then give Ecclestone, $25 million a year to cover Ecclestone's sanctioning fee. The money would be paid back to the state by the extra tax revenue the event would generate.

Well-placed sources suggest that even with Texas fronting the $25 million fee, a Formula One race in Austin would have to stretch to make any money. Without that $25 million, the numbers don't work. But the turmoil between the project backers, and odd and troubling work slowdowns and stoppages on track construction, have spooked comptroller Combs, who now says that she'd look at some sort of payment arrangement, but only after the race, not in advance.

Problem two: Epstein did not realize that the deal cut by Hellmund with Ecclestone--who has been a friend of Hellmund's family for decades--was as sweet as you'll get for a race like this. The contract Ecclestone offered Epstein demanded a larger annual sanctioning fee than Ecclestone required Hellmund to pay--probably by $5 million or $6 million a year. And likely there were terms or escalators for coming years that made Epstein shiver.

Which brings us to the Thanksgiving statement issued by COTA. Read it, and we'll explain what it means:

Circuit of The Americas has responded to Formula One Management's contract requirements by agreeing to an immediate cash payment of the sanctioning fee for the 2012 United States Grand Prix. In addition, Circuit of The Americas has offered to establish an advance payment schedule for U.S. GP races beyond 2012. The offer comes after several weeks of talks, and once accepted, will secure the U.S. GP on the Formula One race calendar.

We have been ready to send Mr. Ecclestone a sanctioning fee check for some time now,' said Bobby Epstein, founding partner of Circuit of The Americas. He hasn't received it yet because the new contract presented to us two weeks ago contained unrealistic and unfeasible demands. We have signed and returned a contract similar to what we anticipated receiving. This race should be a reality, but if we are going to make the 2012 race date, we must receive a countersignature in the coming few days. We believe the teams, fans, sponsors and local business share our enthusiasm and hope that their voices will be heard.'

Bottom line: Mr. Ecclestone, we didn't like your contract, so we wrote one we did like. You have a few days to sign it, even though you're probably pretty busy down in Brazil staging the last F1 race of the season.

All this would likely leave Ecclestone--as well as Hellmund who, like Epstein, is a founding partner of COTA--wondering what was wrong with the original contract, which COTA had months to sign. Hellmund, who has not been bought out of the project, is not part of this latest offer. Reached on holiday, he said he was familiar with this latest offer, And I wish them luck.

They'll need it. Play Formula One poker with Bernie Ecclestone and you learn he has four aces in one hand, a full house in the other. Calling his bluff is dangerous, and it appears that is how he took it at a brief press conference in Brazil. The truth is they are not complying with the terms and conditions of the contract, Ecclestone reportedly said. And as we are making the contract, we will award the event or not award the event. They are not awarding anything to us.

It's also likely that he is chafing over the public assertion that his last contract contained unrealistic and unfeasible demands, and is amused and possibly annoyed that Epstein thinks the F1 boss would be moved into giving Austin a race because the teams, fans, sponsors and local business share our enthusiasm and hope that their voices will be heard. There was no mention of crippled children, but it's likely the next step.

Ecclestone appears to have three choices:

--He can sign the revised contract, which would keep Austin on the F1 schedule for 2012. And he could impose a rather enormous penalty for any issues that prevent the race from running next year, with those issues being a lack of funding, or even more likely, an incomplete, improper or unsafe racing facility. To bring the COTA to F1 standards by next November would require an absolute, and expensive, frenzy of construction. We're guessing that Ecclestone is guessing that COTA doesn't have the will, or the money, to pull it off. Signing the contract with a healthy penalty for non-performance would be Ecclestone calling COTA's bluff, and he could do it for pure entertainment value.

--He could refuse to sign the contract for 2012, but leave the door open for 2013. That would give COTA plenty of time to complete the track, currently budgeted at about $300 million, but given the past five months of infighting and turmoil, what investor would be willing to ante up the money to complete a track without a signed F1 contract in hand? It's unlikely the terms will get better for COTA than they are right now, unless somehow Hellmund is brought back into the fold.

--He could simply shut down talks with COTA. While Ecclestone and Hellmund seemed to be on the same page, Ecclestone and Epstein apparently are not. In 2013, Ecclestone already has the F1 race in New Jersey debuting, and may consider Texas tainted to the point where it just isn't worth the trouble. And it isn't like it would be hard to fill Austin's slot on the calendar for 2013 and beyond--plenty of places are begging for an F1 race.

So where would that leave COTA? With a $70 million (already spent dollars) construction project that seems sort of limited in potential--what else could you do with it? A resort? A Walmart? Spend another $70 million, and you could likely build a decent track that didn't have F1-level facilities, but would still be a nice place to race. But for who? Aside from F1 and NASCAR Sprint Cup, no other series offers anything more than a long shot at genuine profit. And COTA isn't getting a NASCAR Sprint Cup race, not with Texas Motor Speedway just up the road in Fort Worth fighting to fill its seats twice a year. The only chance that could happen is if NASCAR parent-company International Speedway Corp., or its biggest track-owning partner, Speedway Motorsports Inc., bought COTA, and neither seem to be in a gambling mood in this economy.

By all accounts, just closing down construction and going home would cost millions--a staggering $41 million, according to one estimate--but you'd have to think that in environmentally-conscious Austin, it would take at least half that much to restore the property to something that could be re-purposed.

Once again, the ball is in Ecclestone's court, a soft lob that barely made it over the net. Bernie raises his racquet, swings--and we'll know where that ball goes within the next week.
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DF1 · Nov 27, 2011

Sounds like he is closing the door or about to...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96526

tatcat · Nov 27, 2011

today bernie said all they need is a pen and the money.

Blue@Heart · Nov 27, 2011

tatcat said: ↑

today bernie said all they need is a pen and the money.
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The same things they've needed for oh, 4 months now?

I don't know why we're still watching this (myself included) as it's been dead since close to day one....

SRT Mike · Nov 28, 2011

Simon^2 said: ↑

This is 24 Kt gold.

I love the part about Bernie signing COTA's contract with hefty non-performance penalties for entertainment value.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20111126/FREE/111129948
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Like was theorized before, Epstein is the idiot here.

It looks to me like he got greedy and wanted to squeeze Tavo out, and is now paying the ultimate price for it. I take pleasure in that - I hate scheming jackasses who are so greedy for all the marbles that they still step on their own mother to get them.

Epstein is probably a stubborn dope who is so used to being a big fish that he forgot that he's the little fish in this case. He appears to have drastically overestimated the value of what he brings to the table, and utterly failed to be cognizant of the odds his poker game carried.

Bernie doesn't need Austin, and he really couldn't care less if Austin is on the calendar or not. Epstein is playing little league with the "we hope the voices of the fans will be heard" stuff. That is about 8 billion levels below the stuff Bernie cares about. Epstein should have been spending his time with Combs and/or her higher-ups, Bernie, and Tavo to straighten this out - not crafting hammed up press releases that attempt to place blame in Bernie's lap.

Bernie said the Nazis knew how to get things done. Did Epstein think that painting him as a guy who isn't listening to the cries of Texas fans would work? Weak. Utterly weak.

Simon^2 · Nov 28, 2011

Exclusive: Bernie Ecclestone talks to Autoweek about Austin Grand Prix

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20111128/F1/111129932#ixzz1f2mJbQN6http://www.autoweek.com/article/20111128/F1/111129932

autoweek said:

Exclusive: Bernie Ecclestone talks to Autoweek about Austin Grand Prix

The future of the United States Grand Prix in Austin should become clearer this week, as Formula One boss Bernie Ecclestone has set a deadline of Wednesday, Nov. 30, for the Circuit of the Americas to conclude its deal to run the race.

Such an eventuality seems unlikely given that Circuit of the Americas doesn't like the new contract that Ecclestone has offered and returned its own version to the F1 boss--with a predictable response. Autoweek's Adam Cooper sat down with Ecclestone in Brazil for an exclusive chat about the situation.

Autoweek: What's the deadline for Austin?

Bernie Ecclestone: The 30th [of November].

So if the money's in the bank by then?

What's more important than money in the bank is we want security for the future, so we've tried to help them with that. We want a letter of credit up front before every race.

So even if they have the money for the first year's payment, you want the next few years guaranteed . . .

We want to know that next time it's not going to happen again. We're changing the calendar a lot to accommodate these people, and if suddenly they're not there, we're in trouble.

Is it fair to say that you wouldn't have given them the deal in the first place without that $25 million promised by the state that is now apparently off the table?

It's not just the $25 million, that's a small part of it, it's the whole package. Everybody else seems to be happy and comply. I think the problem is a simple one, they never had the money. It's simple.

Tavo Hellmund, who put the deal together originally, told you he had the state money, and you got a letter from Texas comptroller Susan Combs promising you the state would pay.

We don't have to deal with . . . We deal with the promoter and that was Tavo, and it's up to him to respect the contract. He didn't, couldn't, and we terminated the contract.

Was it purely that money wasn't paid, or did he fail to do other things?

Yeah, lots of things. I've spent more time with these people and these races in the States than [I've had to spend with] anybody else [to make a Grand Prix happen]. India's come and gone, and other places have come and gone, and we're still messing around.

Normally, you are dealing with governments, but while they can be a pain, they do get the job done, don't they?

Absolutely. I expect people to do what they say they're going to do, which is what I do.

Were you disappointed with Hellmund? Obviously he wouldn't have made it through the door if you didn't know him already.

I was disappointed insofar as he had what he thought were partners that could finance the business and wouldn't let him down. Really, they let him down, and they're trying to steal from him, get him out of [the project] and do the whole thing themselves.

Was he a bit out of his depth?

He was a bit out of his depth in relying on and trusting people.

Personally, you don't have a problem with him now?

With him, not at all, not in any shape or form.

Bobby Epstein, who appears to be heading up the Circuit of the Americas project at this point, is saying that when you canceled Tavo's contract, the one you offered Epstein and COTA was different. Is that right?

Correct. Different insofar as their deal with Tavo, knowing that they were going to be the people bankrolling him, and knowing what happened to them, we don't feel that they are reliable as they should be.

So you want the guarantees that you're talking about?

They have a contract, which if they want to sign it, they're OK, and if they don't, it's OK as well.

They put out a release on Thanksgiving saying they sent a revised contract to you. It's not normally your style to sign contracts people send back to you, is it?

They're not in a position to do that. Well they are, and they have, but we are not interested.

If the U.S. GP doesn't happen, will you juggle other races around?

It's probably a bit late now. This is what these people don't understand. They're sitting there on their own, thinking about their race, buying something that they can't afford, thinking the world is going to change for them. Which it isn't.

You could move Abu Dhabi for example, which is now back-to-back with India.

We could do [that], we'll have to have a look. But I think the India/Abu Dhabi back-to-back is good anyway; the teams like that.

What's happening with Korea?

We're tidying up bits and pieces, trying to help them.

So that's looking good for next year?

Yeah, yeah. The trouble is they got rid of the guy who in my opinion they shouldn't have got rid of. He knew what he was doing. They put somebody in who's brand new and brand new to motorsport as well, and has had to learn a little bit. He's had a few surprises.

So would you say Korea is 95 percent likely to happen next year--or a better or worse percentage?

Well, we have a contract with them, I hope it's 100 percent. We're just trying to help them.

You've said that you don't have any problems with Bahrain but it's clear that there are still problems in that country.

If they're prepared to put the race on, we'll be there racing, for sure. Obviously something was wrong [this year, which led us to cancel it]. But I'm not so sure if we'd have gone this year we would have had problems, anyway. I was happy to go.
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Blue@Heart · Nov 28, 2011

Simon^2 said: ↑

Exclusive: Bernie Ecclestone talks to Autoweek about Austin Grand Prix

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20111128/F1/111129932#ixzz1f2mJbQN6http://www.autoweek.com/article/20111128/F1/111129932
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No surprises there, but nice to hear things confirmed from the horses mouth...

Ernie Beccelstone · Nov 28, 2011

SRT Mike said: ↑

Like was theorized before, Epstein is the idiot here.

It looks to me like he got greedy and wanted to squeeze Tavo out, and is now paying the ultimate price for it. I take pleasure in that - I hate scheming jackasses who are so greedy for all the marbles that they still step on their own mother to get them.

Epstein is probably a stubborn dope who is so used to being a big fish that he forgot that he's the little fish in this case. He appears to have drastically overestimated the value of what he brings to the table, and utterly failed to be cognizant of the odds his poker game carried.
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Confirmed by BE himself...well played Mike, well played. (I liken this forum to a card game)

http://adamcooperf1.com/2011/11/28/bernie-ecclestone-on-austin-qa-they-never-had-the-money/

BE: "I was disappointed insofar as he (Tavo) had what he thought were partners that could finance the business and wouldnt let him down. Really, they let him down and theyre trying to steal from him, get him out of it, and do the whole thing themselves."

of2worlds · Nov 28, 2011

These days the antics going on behind the scenes are more entertaining than the racing. No wonder Bernie still likes to hang in there and crack the whip...
CH

SRT Mike · Nov 28, 2011

Ernie Beccelstone said: ↑

Confirmed by BE himself...well played Mike, well played. (I liken this forum to a card game)

http://adamcooperf1.com/2011/11/28/bernie-ecclestone-on-austin-qa-they-never-had-the-money/

BE: "I was disappointed insofar as he (Tavo) had what he thought were partners that could finance the business and wouldnt let him down. Really, they let him down and theyre trying to steal from him, get him out of it, and do the whole thing themselves."

Click to expand...

LOL, I just read the article on Autoweek, thinking I could post it for you guys and everyone already knows about it

So it seems just to summarize where we are and what's happened...

-Bernie gave Tavo a sweetheart deal, maybe due to friendship, maybe due (partly) to the state paying the fee and Bernie feeling comfortable with that

-Epstein and McCombs get involved on the money end. At some point, they look @ Tavo and ask "what are you doing for us? Surely Bernie will deal direct! See ya, Tavo!"

-They try to squeeze out Tavo by putting him in breach. Bernie cancels Tavo's contract and offers them a similar deal, but wants a LOC covering the whole shebang

-The state money deal unravels when the idiocy of all this bickering over marbles becomes apparent.

-Epstein can't afford the LOC for the full term. He wants to pay on a yearly basis before the race.

Net/net - Epstein ruined the Austin GP. He made a grab for money and power and it blew up in his face. He got greedy.

I doubt he even has the ability to give Bernie what he wants, even if he wanted to. I don't think he can afford it.

All that's left is for the lawsuits to start flying. Epstein will sue FOM/Bernie, investors will sue Epstein, Epstein will sue McCombs when Red tries to sell or develop the land, the state will sic regulators on Epstein/COTA, etc.

What won't happen is Epstein won't do what he should have done a few weeks ago - roll over like a beaten puppy and submit to his better. He's blown it. What a cretin.

mousecatcher · Nov 29, 2011

iamthesimpleone said: ↑

But at the end of the day, COTA would be left with a world class facility to be used throughout the year for other things. NJ, has a week to recoup their costs....
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Doesn't matter that there's only a week, NJ has a substantially lower (as in order of magnitude) cost to host the race.

mousecatcher · Nov 29, 2011

SRT Mike said: ↑

Remember, when he committed to the original contract, it was a sole US race. Now it's a second US race, and one that is less attractive/alluring than NYC is. COTA is offering a lot less to Bernie than they did 18 months ago, yet they are asking for much more.
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The second race is a red herring. It is unrelated to the COTA issue. Bernie could care less about the allure of any given race. Even Silverstone, even Monaco aren't untouchable, as we've seen in the last couple of years. They all need F1 more than F1 needs them. Montreal probably thought they were safe being the only race on the North American continent, and perhaps the best race (certainly top 3) on the entire calendar, but they were wrong.

Something happened somewhere to screw the first payment, which had been committed. Some obligation somewhere must not have been met, maybe even due to troubles between COTA and Hellmund. Then COTA made their first real mistake, which was to try and play hardball with Bernie. lol

Ernie Beccelstone · Nov 29, 2011

One thing no one has mentioned is that when COTA went to the city of Austin, they didn't get the deal Tavo told them they would get: the city was to put up $4 million, and that would release the state $25 million.

The deal COTA ended up with was COTA had to come up with $4 million to get the $25 million. I'm sure that left Epstein scratching his head... "why should I have to come up with $4 million so Tavo can get $25 million?" I bet that little glitch, that Tavo never counted on, started the ball rolling to where we are now.

DF1 · Nov 29, 2011

Ernie Beccelstone said: ↑

One thing no one has mentioned is that when COTA went to the city of Austin, they didn't get the deal Tavo told them they would get: the city was to put up $4 million, and that would release the state $25 million.

The deal COTA ended up with was COTA had to come up with $4 million to get the $25 million. I'm sure that left Epstein scratching his head... "why should I have to come up with $4 million so Tavo can get $25 million?" I bet that little glitch, that Tavo never counted on, started the ball rolling to where we are now.
Click to expand...

They never had the money to begin with.

DF1 · Nov 30, 2011

NJ not safe? Interesting opinion.

glenv6 · Nov 30, 2011

Looks like Bernie has given COTA and extension...
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20111130/F1/111139978

BigTex · Nov 30, 2011

No reason to rush in or anything.....

BBL · Nov 30, 2011

glenv6 said: ↑

Looks like Bernie has given COTA and extension...
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20111130/F1/111139978
Click to expand...

I find this shocking. He already gave them an extension once, and the WMSC meeting is now only a week away. I did NOT think any more chances would be offered to Austin!

glenv6 · Nov 30, 2011

BigTex said:

No reason to rush in or anything
Click to expand...

Not when there's this much fun to be had!

BBL said: ↑

I find this shocking. He already gave them an extension once, and the WMSC meeting is now only a week away. I did NOT think any more chances would be offered to Austin!
Click to expand...

Chances? These COTA guys are like a big ball of yarn to that Cheshire Cat...

DF1 · Dec 1, 2011

BBL said: ↑

I find this shocking. He already gave them an extension once, and the WMSC meeting is now only a week away. I did NOT think any more chances would be offered to Austin!
Click to expand...

Its good image management from Bernie. He gets to look gracious as they flounder. If the lawsuits come later his defense is assured. Its all on the Austin crowd to see this done no matter. Win win for Bernie again!

brian.s · Dec 1, 2011

DF1 said: ↑

Its good image management from Bernie. He gets to look gracious as they flounder. If the lawsuits come later his defense is assured. Its all on the Austin crowd to see this done no matter. Win win for Bernie again!
Click to expand...

Absolutely! Game, set, match for Mr E no matter what.

DF1 · Dec 1, 2011

Slim says its a no brainer and probably why he wouldnt save Austin( his name mentioned in this thread earlier).

Its not needed if this pans out. NY/NJ in the USA then this. 2 races in the US not required with this possibly.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96601

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