US vs. Euro Dino horsepower

I have driven both and can't tell a difference. There is a better chance, today, that the strength of the engine would be the deciding factor - and that can go either way.

 

I hate to be a kill joy but in standard format my euro engine produced 160bhp on a well callibrated rolling road. When I spoke to the guru's they said that was normal and all I could expect! After many modifications I now get 199bhp - little more than the quoted original. I suspect we can't trust the quoted figure of 195!

 

Diagrams from test benches, these are the only interesting stuff-
everything else is just guessing..
I worked for 5 years on engine applications and tested all my
cars "before" and "after" any modification/tunning.

So please show us your data!

Here is one mesurement from a Friend with a 2,4L Fiat Dino Coupe.
Original Engine with around 80000mls: 167 (Euro-) HP



In will test my 246 GT soon.
Regards
Nicolai

 

Two points to consider
The emissions air pump can be disconnected from the engine but the air injectors immediately inside the header are the size of a pencil and are at a 30 some degree offfset to the exhaust flow and do disrupt the flow I removed and plugged those on my C4 to significant gain (the entire system is also a great deal of weight not of consequence to the GM sedans it was designed for in the 70s
Second the Enzo claimed horsepower of all 60s and early 70s cars were at best "aspirational" Fiat's claims were typically more realistic Fiat built all these engines and I have found their HP claims (of euro cars) for the 2.0 and 2.4 engines to be about the top of 2.0 and 2.4 engines that are bone stock

 

One thing to consider with dyno claims of XXX horsepower is that one dyno is going to measure hp one way, while another will be measured another way. So, unless you really test the two cars side by side on the same dyno on the same day in the same conditions you really wont get a definitive answer.

I do understand exactly what you are saying and dont disagree with you, just trying to raise a discussion point.


Just my .02





PDG

 

The quoted 195 hp is a gross figure, not the net hp that is now required by DOT and European regs. That means the engine was run on an engine dynomometer, not a rear wheel dyno, with no accessories (alternator, air pump, A/C compressor, belts on pulleys, etc), and possibly without even a flywheel, the dyno performing that function. The corrected figure of 160 RWHP by Nick is probably pretty accurate for a 195 gross hp engine. My old 69 911S was rated at 190 SAE gross hp, while in Germany it was rated at 170 hp DIN under more of a net system.

There are no hp figures quoted in OM supplements 60-72 or 85-74, but your premise that peak hp was very close is likely correct. The air injection would cost some hp, but less as the revs increased and exhaust flow sped up and filled the exhaust.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Yes, the "Schleppleistung " is the power loss.
It is measured by staying on the dyno with closed throttle.
With no acceleration the slowing down of the Dyno say someting about the
friction etc. and everything between engine and wheels.
The power loss value is depending on a lot of factors like temperature (oil viscosity etc.
even dyno bearings) and is not comparable to other measurements on other Dynos.
But is total power is true, the difference between engine power, power at the wheels and power loss is always relative.
I agree that the power loss of an Fiat Dino should be higher due to its drivetrain.

 

Thats what was my assumption in the engine chapter of my Dino book.
There are only two reasons for any power difference between a Fiat Dino and a Dino 246: 1) The exhaust system with in total 8 (!) silencers on Fiat Dino against 1/2 on a 246.
2) The air intake which is heated air from the engien and water coller against an closed
"ram air" system on 246 which could make a small boost effect at higher speeds.

 

I dyno'd my US spec car with a refreshed engine and great tune up. It had a few hundred miles on the rebuild. We put in new pistons, valves, valve guides, reshimmed, etc. Car was strong as an ox.

Oh, Stebro Sport exhaust, too. And, I think the pistons were a little higher compression than the stock items.

Here's what I got for RWHP. 176.5

assume 12% loss in the drivetrain = 196 HP at the crank.

if it's more like 20%, a figure I've seen tossed about, the the car made 211 HP

I think somewhere in between is probably right.
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and for reference the Car & Driver chart with the 175 HP notation.
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At that price, do you buy them for their hp ?!!?

I don't think so.

 

engine vs chassis dyno is comparing apples and oranges. I ran dynos and I could get any hp figure you wanted to see. Just play with the temps and humidity and rpm ranges and most dyno guys tell you what you want to hear. This is what you do to calibrate a dyno so runs are equal. Oh yeah, can't run a dino w/out the flywheel.

 

Best comment so far.

I've driven both and found no difference. It's statistically insignificant. Honestly, good or poor tuning makes a bigger difference than Euro or States.

 

Dave, looks a bit anemic below 3200 RPM.

 

You know, we can conjecture about HP all day; why don't you folks dyno your cars and post up the real numbers like Dave did above?

 

Not to toss another angle in on this but surely condition of these 40 year old cars is going to effect the results now.

My car was fresh as a daisy when I put it on the dyno. It was as strong as it ever was going to be, probably, no, certainly better than when it came from the factory.

I've driven a couple Euro cars that were in poor tune. That was enough to make a world of difference compared to my car. I've driven a 308 that didn't seem to be making as much HP as my Dino did.

If I had two NEW Dinos to drive in 1972, one Euro, one US, then a reasonable comparison of actual horsepower could be made.

Remember that the US car has a different distributor than the Euro model, I suspect, as a nod to US emission laws. Also it had an air pump, driven by the motor, right? that had to suck some HP off.

I don't think the US car had 20 less HP than the Euro car, but I betcha brand new, they weren't the same, either.

Trying to make this comparison NOW, with old cars in various conditions, is an exercise in futility.

Having said all that, certainly a car on a dyno can read whatever HP you want, to an extent, and yes, it's for comparison when tuning, not for absolute HP readings, but the two times I had my cars on a dyno, the results were remarkably close to what the cars should make, and neither dyno was run by a guy who had a clue about my car.

DM

 

I know, but thought certain reactions epidermic...