What double standard? Yes, I originally purchased this kit with repro pliers (which I naively thought were original), but when I realized that they weren't original, I clearly stated that the pliers were repro, they are clearly repro because they weren't made to copy "exactly," I didn't make them, and unlike you, I didn't attempt to emboss anything with SIRCODIN like you have. If you bothered to emboss SIRCODIN on wrenches, then you also should have embossed or stamped them with some sort of mark to indicate that you proudly made them. Now, this isn't a "morale" (sic) [buy a dictionary if you don't understand], just pointing out some problems with slavishly copying original tools, to the point of copying a manufacturer's name (SIRCODIN). If that is not "passing off," what is? If SIRCODIN were still in business (who knows, maybe they are somewhere), someone making tools with their name on it would likely be sued, and customs would likely seize such items if imported. My point, in responding to Tony, as I stated before, is that this is a very slippery slope.
Do you see a difference between this situation and someone reproducing Dino wheel caps, horn buttons, or hood ornaments perfectly, including the Dino logo? Or reproduction data plates that have the Ferrari logo on them? Ferrari isn't suing anyone over that. What about Carrello taillight lens reproductions that include the Carrello name? Or Verrell's Klippan seat belt covers? I don't really see what the big deal is. You can't easily get NOS parts at this point in our cars' lives, so people want high quality reproductions. Tony's done this and by all accounts done a stellar job. I think we ought to be thanking him.
I am respectfully backing out of this discussion now. Seems that every thread that goes too long ends up getting too heated.
Just my Two Cents.... What Tony has created was for his own car. Quite a few of us chimed in asking to help with a couple more pieces, myself included. What he has made is of artisan quality. I agree, Caveat Emptor, but there will always be a fraudster when it comes to stuff like this. Tony isn't one. He is just a Dino guy helping other Dino guys. The fact someone may pass it off further down the road, he can't control or benefit from. I agree about such good reproductions being confusing to the market. I don't know how you help that. The prices he is charging isn't cheap, but I am willing to bet he has next to nothing as a profit basis in this type of stuff. And I think he could charge a good bit more and still sell stuff. We have to keep in mind guys like us care about details, including having nice "replacement" items. If we wanted crap, we would buy it. We generally don't. We always seem to complain about crap stuff, but when some one steps up and helps in regards, I think we need to think carefully about offering criticism. I have no interest in what Tony does or doesn't. I will say I have bought stuff from him and it is GREAT quality. I will also say he has worked on a project that he hasn't spoken about. It was one that was of great interest to me. The fact that his idea of quality wasn't met meant he advised against making it. That earns a ton of respect in my opinion. If you are going to do it right, do it right. I am thankful to Tony for what he has done. Just as I am thankful to the Calisi Brothers Jon, Matthias and others for what they have done in making a couple of other items, and on and on.....
Well said Shawn. I know a bit more about this project so decided it was time to set the record straight. When I first started speaking to Tony about our cars we discussed the silly prices being achieved for some of the original items delivered with the cars such as tool and jack kits. Tony was missing the tool kit for his car and I had only one original tool kit from the 4 cars I own. Over four thousand Dinos were produced so the tool kits really should not be that rare or valuable but over the years sellers have either lost the original kits or held them back during the sale just as they have done with the book packs, warning triangles etc. These are now being traded for crazy money as the cars rise in value but that is just market forces at work. People who bought "spare" sets when they were regarded as worthless are rightly patting themselves on the back for being far sighted but that doesn't help new owners who are missing these items and would like to complete their car but do not want to pay the inflated prices being asked for what were generally very low quality tools when new. We talked about the repro tools that were available and being sold by fairly respected people like Dennis McCann amongst others. I had managed to get hold of some before they ran out but could not make complete kits nor could I get hold of the pouches to put them in. We decided to see if we could replicate my tool kit to allow us to make sets for our own cars and Tony set to work finding suitable small engineering companies to see if the project was viable. I started looking at finding the right material for making the pouches and so off we went on what turned out to be a mammoth project in terms of taking far more time than we ever envisaged. There were a lot of dead ends with regard to being made promises by various companies on what could be achieved only to be let down at the last hurdle thus having to start from scratch again. I got in touch with other people who have made great repro items for the community on here and their advice was to keep faith in the project and carry on as it would be rewarding to us both and a great help to other owners if successful and we could make a few extra items. Tony put a tremendous amount of time, dedication and effort into this project and I am in deep gratitude to him for doing so. In the end he sourced all of the suppliers even down to using his contacts to get the material for the pouches after I had hit a brick wall where the only option appeared to be to get a huge roll of the material specially made at a cost that was simply prohibitive for making half a dozen sets of tools. Having been through the cost analysis for making repro stuff to the sort of high quality levels we were happy with I can see why most people will not touch it with a barge pole. I can also see why the factory does not offer original parts as the potential market is so small that any inventory made in economic production volumes will simply sit gathering dust on shelves for years before being sold so the payback period is just too lengthy and unpredictable. I therefore take my hat of to people like Superformance who do put money into making items to keep our cars on the road and fully understand the issues they sometimes experience getting suppliers to ensure the quality is good when the production volumes are so low. Tony had to reject numerous tools for example even though they were being made in tiny batches as the supplier involved was not rigorously checking quality as it was really a low volume nuisance job for them that I think they probably regretted taking on as Tony was on their case repeatedly When the tools were finished Tony was justifiably proud and posted pics here out of sheer enthusiasm. The initial batch made was extremely small but he was inundated by PM with pleas to sell whatever spare tools he had left from owners either wanting to complete their own kits or who's cars were missing the entire kit wanting to buy them. When advised they were all spoken for, owners were also actively asking him to make more so they could buy them. Tony took the decision to help these people out which I thought was great and he staked his own money on having them made before requesting payment. I offered to share this burden with him as I had persuaded him to embark on this mad project in the first place and didn't want him to end up out of pocket if people backed out on buying them. He politely declined and said he would take the risk of trusting people on his own as he, not I, had committed to them he would make them the items. This showed to me without a doubt that he is a man who delivers upon his word. He did not mass produce them by any means so the market will never be flooded but he hopefully helped genuine owners avoid having to pay the inflated prices being asked on eBay etc for originals. I know what the costs involved were and as Shawn pointed out Tony has not become rich from this. His motivation, aside from completing his own car, was more for the satisfaction of rising to the challenge and making a very good end product. At no point have they been misdescribed and no trademarks have been infringed to the best of our knowledge from the research we carried out. It seems strange that the reproduction of the tools has been singled out in this regard when other items such as engine bay lights, manufacturing tags for electrical components and manufacturers logos for glass etching have been created not to mention the other items mentioned in this thread by other posters. Any of them could be sold down the line as NOS etc if an unscrupulous vendor got their hands on them. All everyone involved in these projects has done is try to reproduce high quality items to allow the small community on here improve their cars. I for one hope this type of cottage industry spirit continues for the benefit of all current and future owners as it is helping preserve the cars in as close to their original form as possible.
Thank you to everybody for your kind words, I am truly touched. Thank you I must just add that if it wasn't for Iain's absolute dedication to detail they may have been less impressive. I was corrected on numerous occasions and politely told to lift the bar! Tony
Original has only one meaning. I didnt know squat about toolkits when a certain LI dealer tried to stick me with a POS Dino and said in writing that original toolkits werent worth anything! I wrote about it, since i had the emails and printed them before ms destroyed a couple million email accounts last year! Repros are great. Theyre just worth less. At these numbers, its fraud to say otherwise
The aforementioned toolkit listed in Ebay with the USAG wrenches is on sale at a bargain basement price of $8900 down from $15,000 Ferrari 246 Dino Tool Kit Original | eBay
As Shawn noted above, enthusiasts who need parts but won't pay the exorbitant prices for originals want great reproduction parts. Once a great reproduction part can be found which is indistinguishable from the NOS parts, paying NOS prices for NOS parts becomes fraught with issues. It's not about morality, it's about availability. Now that these tool kits are available, there is nothing left to debate in my opinion. Choosing to applaud the hard work of the individual and craftsmen who made the reproduction part or bash them for copying or changing the sales landscape is a matter of personal opinion but it changes nothing. If somebody advertises an item for sale as being NOS and it is not (as is the case with USAG pliers in a Dino toolkit), they are either themselves misinformed or simply misleading the public. Resources like this website, Matthias' book and some of the Dino experts who frequent this website can do their best to help differentiate and educate others. Caveat emptor is always the best policy. My $0.02.
Keith, I think the most interesting part is "Correct Repro" parts aren't being marketed here. This is filling in missing parts with something that is better than nothing. As a seller, you should disclose that. The fact he doesn't is sad, mainly for an uniformed buyer. In terms of the broader spectrum of repro stuff, it is a very small amount of repro stuff that is accurate and an even smaller segment of original stuff. Look at how few manual pouch sets are available today vs. 10 years ago. It is a different world today, which is odd. Shawn
Cheaters are going to cheat. It is sad. Information is the only defense. It's true, pouch sets and other coveted items rarely come up for sale these days and they weren't particularly abundant 10 years ago. Rumor has it you have purchased them all ;-) Keith
Seems that some of the vitriol in this thread back in December has dissipated a bit, so I'll chime in again, hopefully without controversy. 4RedNo, very well said in your last post here! I agree. It is entirely possible to acquire some reasonably good quality tools that strongly resemble the originals for a very good price. Please see my post here http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/308-328/478576-3x8-tool-kit-prices-suddenly-worth-%241000-more.html (Post #77 on page 4) that includes some suggestions for a complete (though non OEM) tool kit for under $200. Before the bashing begins, let it be known that: (1) I understand the desire on the part of certain owners to have all original tools, pouches, manuals, etc.; (2) I understand that these items are now overpriced, and that some owners would rather buy quality tools at a reasonable cost; (3) I understand certain owners' desire to have what appear to be all-original tools, since for some models these are simply unobtainable or astronomically priced; (4) I understand the concern on the part of certain people that reproduction parts could be misrepresented as original, and therefore more valuable to some people. The bottom line is, I have no problem with any decision that any Ferrari owner makes with regard to his tool kit - just as long as replacement or reproduction tools are never misrepresented as original. I am trying to see everyone's viewpoint in all of this, and believe that ferrarichat would be a better site if everyone tried to do the same.
