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Used F-1 engines...?

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by Meister, Jun 13, 2004.

  1. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2001
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    The Meister
    What does a typical team do with their enigne after the race weekend? Not looking to buy one or make a coffee table but just curious. Are they broken down for R&D? Stored? Ran again somewhere/somehow?
     
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  3. Burnout

    Burnout Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    732
    Canada
    If by chance you are looking for one as a coffee table, the Collector's Studio in Toronto has an engine block used in last years F2003. I didnt see a price, but "if you have to ask...."
     
  4. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    If I'm not mistaken, the engines go back to the supplier (honda, ect). Generally, I don't think the teams are allowed to touch them. Whats inside is not to be seen outside the factory. The factory honda motorcycle stuff was destroyed when it was obsolete, I've got to believe the F1 stuff is the same deal, although they probably store 1 some place nice and safe.
     
  5. winston

    winston Karting

    Nov 3, 2003
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    foothills
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    don
    Collectors may purchase them. I saw a very interesting 1994 from Gerhard Berger's Ferrari. The variable intake trumpets were quite clever, much like the collapsable travelling drinking cups.1994 was the last year of the V-12's from Ferrari, everyone else was using V-10's.
    Winston
     
  6. Admiral Thrawn

    Admiral Thrawn F1 Rookie

    Jul 2, 2003
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    Jim
    I believe Ferrari used a V12 for the 1995 season. They moved to the V10 in 1996 when the rule changes came into place for that season.
     
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  8. jtremlett

    jtremlett F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2004
    4,112
    At Ferrari some of the old F1 engines are used for training employees in the factory how to assemble engines. I'm not sure why they use F1 engines (although the F1 engines are made in the road car foundry) but there were several of them there, from different years, when I did the factory tour back in January.
     
  9. imperial83

    imperial83 F1 Rookie
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    May 14, 2004
    2,892
    After a race is completed. The old Engines are sent back to the factory for analyses. Data sush as wear and tear are collected. This helps the team set te rev limit in races with similar conditions or for historical data for next year. Then once all the testing is over, the engines are used for R&D and training of new engineers. Modifications are made to the old engine to see how it would react given a different part or a different fuel. Believe it or not, there are very engines that atually make it on to the collectors market. Most engines are reused for testing, training and R&D inside the factory.
     
  10. Dale

    Dale F1 Veteran

    Oct 7, 2003
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    Dale Juan
    The head and block castings are used twice then scraped,vavles are scraped cranks can be reused as can rods,all parts have there own number to check how many hours work,cycles that component has done,its no use even having the money for a up to date F1 motor you wont start it,the softwear will never get handed over,teams never open the engine up they would get shot at dawn,

    cheers
    Dale.
     
  11. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
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    Thanks for the info
     
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  13. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2003
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    Dale,

    I an issue of Racecar Engineering a couple of months ago they had a story on how a person that had an old Jordan Peugot car and wanted to track the thing but they did not have the ECU for the car so the made and programed one from off the shelf items.

    Also i know the you could buy a Ferrari Typo 049 engine from the Ferrari world web site for around 25,000 Euros.

    Rob
     
  14. Dale

    Dale F1 Veteran

    Oct 7, 2003
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    Hi Rob i read that VOL 14 NO 4 page 58,peugeot V10 into the jordan,
    Rob mind blowing what they get up to in this read i had to read it twice it was just so interesting,

    cheers
    Dale.
     
  15. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    11,491
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    I wonder, if one set the rev limit to say 12,000 or 15000, how many hours of use could they get out of the engine? Would it be possible to make the engine a 50k mile engine?
     
  16. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

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    Omar in order to make an F1 motor into a 50K motor the rev limit would be set so low that i doubt that the car would even be able to move forward. F1 motors have very short strokes and that prevents them from producing a lot of torque.

    I just hope the FIA does not get there way and end up with a 1 engine rule for 4+ races. That would just mess up F1. :(
     
  17. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Believe it or not, torque is a function of displacement and flow, not stroke. So for a 3 liter 200 ft-lbs for a street engine to maybe 250 ft-lbs for a full race engine regardless or bore or stroke. But since hp=torque x rpm/5252, an engine making 250 ft-lbs@17000 would make 800 hp.

    So an f1 engine could be de-cam'd, de-compressioned, deunobtainiun stuffed and put on the street and I'd guess you wouldn't have to invest must over 1/2 million to do it....
     
  18. Admiral Thrawn

    Admiral Thrawn F1 Rookie

    Jul 2, 2003
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    Detuning a modern F1 engine (say 900hp at 19,000rpm) down to around 14,000 rpm allows it to produce about 670hp. That's still a hell of alot of power for a car that weighs only 600kg.

    I wonder how long it would last doing laps with the redline at this rpm...

    Anyone know how you could work that out, roughly? Would the increase in lifespan be proportional to the reduction in power?
     
  19. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    It should do much much better than just the reduction in power %. Internal forces on the crank, rods, valves are related to RPM^2, so a reduction in rpm from 19k to 14k should more than double the life on it's own. Then you add the 30% for the power reduction, so your almost double the life. There is also a heat factor which can be the most important and will probably double the life again. That makes it a factor of about 4. I think that is about right, I know I used to road race a harley (I know...), it was build to live to 9000, and needed a rebuild after 2 races when I rode it that way. If I shifted at 7500 it would gountil I couldn't stand it anymore and shifted at 9k again...4 races it was still tight, so it probably would have lived 6-8, about 4 times the life. Racing is very very hard on the engine so a race engine that will live 6-8 races is probably 50k on the street...now that I think about it the japanese sport bikes (big bore, short stroke) run 6-8 races in the stock classes and last about 50k on the street.
     
  20. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

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    The definition of torque is as follows "torque is the turning moment on the crankshaft"

    Now lets take a look at at something as simple as a box end wrench. if you are using a stubby wrench(Crankshaft stroke) you are limited the amount of torque you can apply to a fastener(Crankshaft). Now go and use a longer wrench and you can apply more torque to the fastener.

    This is why an F1 motor has to rev so high a very short stroke and a massive bore. the large bore is to allow maximum valve area to allow the air fuel mixture to get into the cylinder.

    Look at these numbers

    Engine type________Bore_________Stroke_________Max RPM______HP

    Ferrari F1 049-------96.0-----------41.4-------------18,000-------810

    Kawasaki ZX-10-----76.0-----------55.0-------------12,000-------165

    bore to stroke ratios Ferrari 2.32:1 Kawasaki 1.38:1

    In order to make an f1 motor run at lower RPM's and produce torque for the street. The stroke must be increased and the cylinder head redesigned to allow proper air flow at lower RPM's. If you need to go thru all of this you would be better of starting with a clean sheet of paper and design a new engine.
     
  21. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    What your saying sounds right and is where you get in trouble.
    Torque= force x distance (ft-lbs)
    So when you hold the displacement constant and change the stroke, clearly the bore also changes. The bore sets the area that the combustion gases are acting on, so the force part of the equation changes. The result is that torque does not depend on stroke.

    As an example, take 2 engines. Both have good flow and say 1000psi (.0049kg/mm2) cylinder pressure during combustion. Both have a 300cc cylinder, one is a 2:1 bore to stroke, the other is 1:2 making the dimensions:
    engine stroke bore area torque
    1 45.70 9.14 6558 1.468 kg-m
    2 115.2 57.60 2604 1.470 kg-m

    So, minus my rounding errors, they are the same.




    Engine type________Bore_________Stroke_________Max RPM______HP

    Ferrari F1 049-------96.0-----------41.4-------------18,000-------810

    Kawasaki ZX-10-----76.0-----------55.0-------------12,000-------165

    In your example the displacements don't match, so 165 x 3 = 495hp, for a 3 liter kawasaki (I guess it would be a 12 cylinder). Then solving for torque I get 216 ft-lbs. On the f1 I get 236 ft-lbs, so the short stroke enige ins making more torque, because it is in a higher state of tune.

     
  22. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I caught a little bit of practice Saturday, the anouncer was saying the engines idle at 4500, and are undriveable below 6000..it just stalls.....that's a lot of detuning.
     
  23. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    Sep 25, 2002
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    Thanks guys for the responses.
     
  24. 4re gt4

    4re gt4 Formula 3

    Apr 23, 2002
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    Hans E. Hansen
    However, at least SOME of the engines get into private hands. I saw Jon Shirley's Ferrari F1 car (I think it was an F2002) and there was an engine in the car, and another on an engine stand next to it.

    Ferrari has an actual department that specializes in servicing privately owned F1 cars. It was shown in a magazine recently, but I can't seem to find the reference.
     
  25. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
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    Franklin E. Parker
    I have several old F1 engine parts that have been mounted on nice wooden stands in my office. I bought them from T.Rutlands.
     

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